CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Electric cars - affordable

(31 posts)

  1. Rosie
    Member

    Article on the ease with which drivers will take up electric cars. It all sounds plausible to me. A piece of kit that is expensive and used by a minority (bicycles in the 1880s, cars in the 1900s, mobile phones in the 80s) becomes cheaper and in reach of the average person.

    My own beef with cars isn't so much their emissions but the amount of space they take up and how their convenience has destroyed our cities.

    https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/qvpyjx/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-uks-ban-on-petrol-cars

    Posted 4 months ago #
  2. LivD
    Member

    My husband and I agreed last night that our dream car would be a Land Rover Defender with a hybrid engine. Big enough to chuck bikes and holiday luggage in the boot, and with range enough to visit the frozen north where there are no charging points, but would run on electric for all city journeys. They just need to build them now...

    Posted 4 months ago #
  3. Darkerside
    Member

    Ah, the Defender. A vehicle apparently designed without realising drivers have a right arm. :)

    Posted 4 months ago #
  4. Frenchy
    Member

    Ah, the Defender. A vehicle apparently designed without realising drivers have a right arm. :)

    The window rolls down, doesn't it?

    Posted 4 months ago #
  5. Darkerside
    Member

    It does, but we only ever got the damn things out in the depths of winter when the other ambulances couldn't get up the hills. It was considered poor form to turn up at people's houses with snow *inside* the vehicle as well as out.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  6. LaidBack
    Member

    Read interesting letter about energy needed if we were to use electric cars in same way as our fossil fuelled cars.

    Long range Nissan Leaf battery stores 30kwh.
    Range of 100 - 120 miles.
    Average car travels 10,000 miles a year (apparently).
    So needs 3Mwh per year / 8kwh per day
    25 million cars (assuming we have same number as now) would need 200Gwh per day.
    This is more electricity than we can produce easily without a large increase in generation (UK figures).

    Figures from Hugh Walker's letter in National 28/7/17

    If he's right then we have a problem?

    Posted 4 months ago #
  7. twq
    Member

    @LaidBack - I see it as a choice between two problems.
    First, the status quo means high emissions leading to health issues especially in cities. It also is more energy intensive than the alternative.

    The EV generation issue to me is more manageable and attractive. Centralised electricity generation increases efficiency and opens the door to carbon capture in case of fossil fuels, and a mix of renewables.

    The other exciting part is the potential to use the network of plugged-in cars as power storage for the grid - reducing the total generating capacity requirement as daily peaks and troughs get flattened out.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    "Centralised electricity generation increases efficiency"

    I suppose it depends what is meant by centralised, but surely the 'future' is renewables which are likely to be more spread out also the prospect of smaller ones serving local areas.

    "the potential to use the network of plugged-in cars as power storage for the grid"

    That is certainly an interesting potential 'byproduct'.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  9. PS
    Member

    I suppose it depends what is meant by centralised, but surely the 'future' is renewables which are likely to be more spread out also the prospect of smaller ones serving local areas.

    Yes. General trend is away from centralised generation and passive consumption towards local energy systems.

    The other exciting part is the potential to use the network of plugged-in cars as power storage for the grid - reducing the total generating capacity requirement as daily peaks and troughs get flattened out.

    This is spot on - renewables (esp wind and tidal) will be generating electricity during the night when there isn't currently much demand, so there's a big push for developing battery technology to store it. Loads of electrics cars, buses, vans plugged in overnight will give us somewhere to put it.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  10. amir
    Member

    There's undoubtedly a lot to do to redevelop our energy infrastructure to met further needs and whilst significantly reduce emissions. Given that the UK government is currently diverted tackling Brexit and the not-so-good history of UK governments in tackling long-term problems, I'm not so hopefully that the necessary progress will be made on time. Plus it's all reliant on technology gains - are we guilty of taking this for granted.

    I can't see the mass-production of cars at the current level being sustainable anyway. The energy required for build, transport and recycling is substantial and the materials have to come from somewhere. Our street of 3 bedroom houses seems to have 3 cars parked outside most.

    Truelly clever solutions would enable people to dump the car without much pain.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Our insanely inefficient transport system is in thrall to the metal god. Electric vehicles are not the answer

    "

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/01/car-chokehold-britain-polluted-inefficient-transport-system-motor-industry

    Posted 4 months ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

  13. cc
    Member

    and the materials have to come from somewhere

    Here's an interesting article that's (partly) about lithium-ion batteries, and where the raw materials might come from to manufacture enough of them.
    The Two Capitalisms: Electric Batteries as a Case Study in US Magical Thinking vs. Chinese Vertical Integration

    (TL;DR China has much of the world supply of raw materials and it does not intend to export them as such.)

    Posted 4 months ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    "China has much of the world supply of raw materials"

    In China or its 'colonies'?

    "and it does not intend to export them as such"

    Presumably, increasingly, that will be true for more countries wanting some sort of 'value-adding' industry in addition to mining.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  15. jdanielp
    Member

    It's rather out of date now, but I watched and enjoyed the documentary The Revenge of the Electric Car last night on YouTube:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Plugins

    The Tesla thread is especially interesting following the roll out of the Model 3 to actual customers (albeit just ones that work for Tesla for the time being) last week.

    However, the initial and parting aerial shots of congested LA roads pose questions which weren't even considered...

    Posted 4 months ago #
  16. jdanielp
    Member

    Electric cars are not the answer to air pollution, says top UK adviser

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/aug/04/fewer-cars-not-electric-cars-beat-air-pollution-says-top-uk-adviser-prof-frank-kelly

    Although if regenerative braking can be taken to the point of replacing physical brakes, then electric cars would only be causing pollution locally from tyre wear.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    From link -

    "

    “The safe and efficient movement of people around the capital can only be achieved through a clean and expanded mass transit system – served by buses, overground train and the underground system – and by as much active transport in the form of walking and cycling as is feasibly possible.”

    "

    Posted 4 months ago #
  18. wingpig
    Member

    "Although if regenerative braking can be taken to the point of replacing physical brakes..."

    You'd need to add a special lever to deploy chocks around the wheels on slopes and suchlike.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

  20. crowriver
    Member

    Electric vehicless won't solve this problem:

    Nicholas Sanderson‏ @Nicholas_I_S
    56% of PM pollution from vehicle tyres and brakes wearing away. Shifting to walking and cycling best solution.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/04/revealed-every-londoner-breathing-dangerous-levels-of-toxic-air-particle

    Posted 2 months ago #
  21. Ed1
    Member

    Bike tyres and bike brakes would also produce some PM as would shoes there could be a quota for the number of people allowed in the centre at one time, with a gate that only allows one person to enter when one exits -)

    Posted 2 months ago #
  22. crowriver
    Member

    "Bike tyres and bike brakes would also produce some PM as would shoes"

    Hahaha, very good.

    Hub brakes are totally enclosed and don't produce any PMU. Such a small surface area of a bike tyre is in contact with the road, I imagine PM2.5 emissions will be negligible.

    Shoes? Maybe jogging should be strictly controlled then. Definitely no smoking cigarettes anywhere either...

    Seriously though, probably time to start clamping down on coal fires, wood burning stoves and the like. London already plans to introduce stricter controls.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  23. crowriver
    Member

    I note that boy racer types on soshul meedja are getting all excited about the new Tesla. Oh well, there goes the planet...

    https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/new-tesla-roadster-will-go-0-60mph-19s

    Posted 3 weeks ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

  25. LaidBack
    Member

    Came across BBC Alba Air an Rathad show this week. This was an electric and alternative fuel car special.
    Speed and style were a main concern for presenters. Range too of course. A BMW came top. Nissan Leaf was far too boring. Interesting insight to what younger drivers feel.
    Fashion and marketing will get sales up.
    That and more public subsidy for private transport!

    Posted 3 weeks ago #
  26. jdanielp
    Member

    Tesla was launching their new articulated lorry or semi as Americans call them, but it's not at all surprising that the media is focussing on the new Roadster that was brought out at the end. They claim that a fleet of electric semis in convoy will be more efficient than a train (engine style not cited so not sure if this is a direct comparison with an electric train or not).

    Posted 3 weeks ago #
  27. LaidBack
    Member

    Anyone else going to this Nordic Horizon Event tomorrow? FREE
    https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/electric-dreams-norway-and-the-future-of-electric-cars-tickets

    Lesley Riddoch chairing. May arrive with coolbox UA to show how E-bikes can be used in cities. EVs won't solve congestion plus issues debated here on this thread.

      Tue 5 December 2017
      18:00 – 20:00 GMT

      Scottish Storytelling Centre
      43-45 High Street
      Edinburgh
      EH1 1SR

    Posted 6 days ago #
  28. LaidBack
    Member

    @Rosie - My own beef with cars isn't so much their emissions but the amount of space they take up and how their convenience has destroyed our cities.

    Very well attended event. Users of EVs are a very passionate bunch but more open to looking at other means of transport too I reckon. We parked two Urban Arrows inside the Story Telling Centre - staff there very helpful.
    This was to show EV crowd that E-power could be applied to local transport without taking up street space.

    Speaker Petter Haugneland, Communications Director of the Norwegian Electric Vehicle Association does not own a car. He uses his e-bike around Oslo and it turns out he had already test ridden a UA from dealer there.

    His presentation showed how the massive incentives in Norway to get people to choose EVs have resulted in around 35% of vehicles being EV or hybrid. The Norway EVA has 50,000 members. The Scottish EVA has 700 with around 1.5% vehicles being EVs.

      Main points I remember were:
      - Norwegians do not pay any VAT on EVs and this 25% reduction in price makes a VW E-Golf cheaper than the petrol equivalent.
      - Norwegians do not pay for charging EVs
      - Norwegian Gov are spending loads on putting charging points everywhere they can
      - EVs can use bus lanes (for now)
      - EVs pay no road tolls or for ferries/bridges/tunnels (for now)
      - EV owners will not go back to fossil fuelled cars
      - EV owners enjoy slow travel and look at journey recharging stops every 100 miles as a plus (TESLAs go further on one charge though so this may be history soon)
      - EV owners think their cars are environmentally friendly as Norway's Hydro schemes churn out power all night. So in effect they are using off-peak power.
      - EV owners have stopped using internal / Scandi flights so much

    Counter arguments a-plenty came from audience. With fuel poverty it would seem odd to allow people to travel for nothing in a private vehicle while paying for heating.

    Ethics of mining for materials. Costs of making an EV. Will the EV boom mean we can't change cities to be more people orientated with active trave?
    Norway does have desire to get more people cycling E-bike sales are going well there although these are Vatted. In Oslo though they are providing incentives. "Most of the in-Norway sold e-bikes retail for about NOK 20,000 (€2,200). Residents of Norway’s Capital Oslo however can obtain an electric bicycle for much less. The city council is supporting cycling and offers a NOK 500 (€550) subsidy for residents buying an e-bike.
    "With this subsidy scheme the Oslo city council is exemplary of Norwegian politicians that are actively promoting cycling. For that more bike lanes are constructed. And these bike routes are made snow free in winter after snowfall." (source ww.bike-eu.com)

    The talk can be seen here. Lesley Riddoch is still recovering from a hip operation so wasn't able to chair.
    Audience was 90% male.
    https://livestream.com/DemocracyTV/electric-dreams-norway?platform=hootsuite

    Urban Arrow Cargo XL @ Electric Dreams - Norway and the future of electric cars
    Urban Arrow Cargo XL @ Electric Dreams - Norway and the future of electric cars
    Nordic Horizon Event: Electric Dreams - Norway and the future of electric cars

    Posted 4 days ago #
  29. jdanielp
    Member

    @LaidBack thanks for the report. I was busy elsewhere last night, but would most likely have come along otherwise.

    Posted 4 days ago #
  30. nedd1e_h
    Member

    I presume Norway are able to not charge VAT on EVs due to the fact they are not in the EU?

    Pretty sure the EU are in firm control of VAT on products for their members.

    Posted 4 days ago #

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