Another question is will they make the site permeable, with convenient routes for pedestrians and cyclists?
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Is this a new kind of New town?
(96 posts)-
Posted 6 years ago #
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"For the avoidance of doubt the currently layout incorporating staggered pedestrian crossings is not supported. Subsequently, all works are to be carried out at no cost to the Council."
Indeed it is a good condition. Although I realise that they are sometimes beneficial to slower walkers this is more often than not just being used as an excuse at the altar of traffic flow. If they are proposed in a new development then it is a sign that the planners are using the wrong set of objectives. I cannot think of a single staggered crossing in the city which is beneficial to pedestrians. Meanwhile there are plenty which are either inherently dangerous to pedestrians or encourage riskier behaviour.
When it comes to cycling they are never a solution, merely the creation of additional problems.
Posted 6 years ago # -
HankChief - The Council's own Transport Department recommended refusal of the application (and the linked 17/04391/FUL) (see pages 37 to 46 of your link) as:
"1. The scale of road infrastructure proposed has not been adequately justified; and
2. Insufficient detail has been provided in respect of the proposed crossing of the Edinburgh Tram line within Edinburgh Park."The attached conditions are a suggested "second best", if the Council chooses to grant permission.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@HankChief: It is
Pardon my obtuseness but "it is" what? Access to the Hermiston Gait roundabout from Edinburgh Park is already open to all and sundry, or the development is being used as the justification for doing that - or what?
It's Friday afternoon, it's been a long week...
Posted 6 years ago # -
Sorry, my bad.
If the development goes ahead the access barriers will be removed from the road to Hermiston Gait.
Posted 6 years ago # -
No worries.
Did the Transport Department have anything to say about the numbers of commuters in the Gyle and Edinburgh Park who will want to switch to accessing the M8 that way as soon as the access is opened up?
Posted 6 years ago # -
Dunno. I only found out about it by asking the developers when we were discussing the junctions either end of their site and barriers weren't on the plans.
Posted 6 years ago # -
OK, ta. I'll maybe have a trawl through the documents on the planning portal.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Sheesh
Or
Oooft
Posted 6 years ago # -
Meanwhile in Aviemore, Gehl are working on a sustainable small community:
http://www.ancamasmor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/ACM_masterplan_Vision_Methodology-1.pdf
[i]”Despite all the advances in technology, especially in transport and communications which have drastically changed the way we live, people still function as
they have done for thousands of years. Our bodies look more or less the same as they did thousands of years ago, we are the same size and our senses work in the same way. We are designed to walk and our senses function correctly at walking speed. We walk at approximately 4 mph and at this speed our senses perform in a way which allows us to relate to our surroundings and to other people.
We are also social creatures, and study of the behaviour of people demonstrates that people are naturally curious and attracted to places where there are other people; to watch other people, to meet other people, or just to feel part of a social situation. To make a really good environment for people we must respond to these senses and social needs. We can design environments that are coherent, well proportioned and dimensioned to people-scale, appropriate for walking, attractive and appealing to peoples’ senses.
Generally we should think of small, slow and low places. Smaller spaces respond to the physical size of our bodies, lower spaces respond to our horizontal field of vision and slower places respond to our natural walking speed and ability to process sensory information at this speed.
To enable and encourage social interaction, we need to make places safe and attractive, so that people want to spend time there and ensure that the environment is conducive to seeing, hearing and talking...The conventional way of planning by focusing primarily on traffic and buildings needs to be turned upside down, to make people and community users more prominent in the planning process.
”Posted 6 years ago # -
Also in news Strontian have just built there own primary school rather than accept highland council one following failed consultation. Looks nice with the distressed wood well cuprinolled.
The school can be converted into social housing if after the PPP secondary converts to public ownership and it is not falling down and the primary can fit into the secondary.
An example to us all these Strontium dogs.
Strontium the element is in strontianite that is found in the area and isolated by Humphry Davy in 1800s then in Starlord and 2000A.D. Comics where. First came across them in 1977
Posted 6 years ago # -
If I'm right in thinking this is inside the bypass, contrary to the EEN comments, it could actually reduce traffic in the Edinburgh Park area, by enabling people to live close to where they work.
The key is to make it attractive to families (as Brent Toderian wisely reckons). That means medium-density, walkable, with local shops, parks & schools.
Posted 6 years ago # -
The bit within the Bypass, in Edinburgh Park, does that actually include any housing? I didn't think it did.
I had thought it was the 'East of Milburn Tower' scheme (could be wrong on the name) which was the residential bit, outside the bypass and east of Gogar Station Road.
There are two relevant underpasses which the developers have the opportunity to make friendly for active travel - fingers crossed they don't water that down.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@Snowy This application (now passed) is entirely within the bypass and contains a significant degree of housing.
I don't understand how they expect Lochside Avenue not to be rapidly full of ratrunning vehicles seeking to avoid the Gogar roundabout tailbacks if they remove the barriers. That's the reason they were installed in the first place, I recall (and indeed were a condition of planning permission for some previous phase of Edinburgh Park?)
Posted 6 years ago # -
It is the bit in Edinburgh Park. North of the Edinburgh Park Station.
This 1st part they will build is this set of offices and gym / sports etc at the north part of their site.
The southern part of the site is proposed to be housing, which they'll have to come back for approval for.
The underpasses seem to be the responsibility of the Garden District, for whom we are still awaiting the Reporters recommendation.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Ah righto, hadn't realised about the 2nd, southern, phase.
I'm a big believer in living within an active travel distance of work but I'm not sure I'd want to live THAT close.
I'm in two minds about the idea of opening up the barrier bit to traffic to/from Hermiston Gate junction. On the one hand it might make the junctions at Makro and Gyle roundabouts a bit less unpleasant for bikes by reliveing the pressure, but on the other hand it could as you say lead to rat running through EP to get to the M8.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Just noticed that they've submitted a PAN for the Southern Phase - http://www.planit.org.uk/planapplic/Edinburgh/19/02776/PAN/
- Nothing in the way of details, but there is a Consultation on 19th June (Wednesday) at the Edinburgh Park Novatel between 13:00 and 19:00
"Application for the development of the Southern Phase of Edinburgh Park to comprise a mix of uses including residential (Class 9 houses and sui generis flats), student accommodation and serviced apartments (sui generis), offices (Class 4), hotel (Class 7), crche (Class 10), leisure (Class 11), ancillary Class 1/ Class 2/ Class 3 and sui generis public house, car parking, landscaping, roads, access and associated works. The submission of this PAN follows an earlier consultation in respect of the site. This PAN reflects a new approach to the site to take forward a residential lead masterplan."
Posted 5 years ago # -
Just noticed the revised junction designs have been approved by CEC. (Page35 of link)
I reckon they are better than we had before, with no double stage toucans at either end and crossing mid way along the boulevard so you can join on the correct side of the road.
I'm going to meet with the developer later in the week so any comments please let me know & I'll see what I can do.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Thanks for all your work on this HankChief!
Posted 5 years ago # -
That's the right document. Sorry it isn't accessible :-(
Posted 5 years ago # -
The Planning Portal is awful for this sort of stuff and it's pretty disappointing that public documents are still stored in such an opaque way in 2019.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Screenshot for those who can't access the document: https://i.imgur.com/GEpCnqD.png
Overall it seems pretty good? As long as they don't give up and put give ways at every side road that is...
Looks to be a segregated/shared use link to Ed.Park Station in the next phase too.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Unidirectional on both sides is good.
But the lack of continuous footway/cycleway and lack of priority over what look like driveways (with excessively flared entrances) is extremely poor.
Posted 5 years ago # -
I'd agree with Neddie, It's an improvement but any cycle path of that length which doesn't maintain the same priority as the road it is parallel to is doomed to failure.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Going to hear the great Prof Geoff Palmer talk about the slavery that built the New Town, in offices in Moray Place tonight
Posted 5 years ago # -
“ Going to hear the great Prof Geoff Palmer talk”
Please report back - new thread?
Posted 5 years ago # -
Yesterday I met with Parabola and talked through their plans.
The good news is the plans I previously linked to are due to replaced with ones that should be even better for E-W cycling across their site.
They have started the 2 year build on their first office block and some of their public realm (Open spaces and health centre / sports pictures), nearest to the existing Edinburgh Park buildings at the North of the site. This does not include their main E-W Boulevard (that I'm most interested in) as they are still in discussions with Edinburgh trams about the tram crossing.
They will be submitting a planning application for the Housing (south of the boulevard – nearer to the train line) in January. This application will include revisions to the boulevard designs as follows:
1. The boulevard will be only be a through route for buses – cars may use it but only to access housing. The existing perimeter routes will be the main routes for cars.
2. The boulevard will be narrower with more space for pedestrians and a wide bi-directional cycle route separated from the roadway by a wide verge.
3. The junctions either end of the boulevard will not need to be traffic light controlled as they have much reduced traffic volumes. They are planning a toucan crossing to access the Bypass underpass – I have asked why it can’t be a Tiger crossing (a wide Zebra that bikes and peds can use)…
4. They are in dialogue with the Council’s West Edinburgh Link team, to ensure that their cycle paths look & feel like the ones that the council are planning for the wider Gyle area.
5. They are also looking at how to better link to the underpass under the railway (to the East of Edinburgh Park station) and the cut through to the Gyle.
All in all I was pretty pleased with the session and their willingness to listen to our concerns and the importance of E-W cycling across their site.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Did they mention how they're going to prevent it being a through route? Just hope no one uses it or something like a bus gate at the tram crossing?
With it being bi-directional now hopefully they'll be more willing to do proper junction crossings for it.
re: 3, I've never used/seen a Tiger crossing but how effective are they? I imagine quite a lot of drivers wouldn't realise the need to give way to crossing cycles as well as pedestrians.
Posted 5 years ago #
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