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Warning - potholes

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "Didn't know you could do that. Have any cycle-specific-insurance-protected people on here ever tried claiming for pothole damage?"

    Oh yes - you don't need to be insured either.

    Need details of damage + location of pothole - photo very desirable.

    Most people don't claim for bikes - probably because the don't realise they can - but also because (usually) cost isn't worth the hassle. Different if you've actually been injured though.

    I don't hope anyone has been hurt, but I assume it would change certain practices (lack of) if anyone crashed on an uncleared off road path.

    Though no doubt they'd have a defence of 'everyone knows we don't clear them so it's 'at your own risk' '...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Beeb has updated that article. There's an interesting quote from one "Pat Watters" from COSLA on the side of the article;

    This year alone, we have put down 500 million tonnes of salt on the roads in Scotland since the beginning of December and that's an enormous amount and that takes it toll on the road”

    Now. Which year? He means last year, I think.

    500 million tonnes of salt in December?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. Morningsider
    Member

    Half a billion tonnes! Seems unlikely - as of 22 December, a total of 236,743 tonnes of salt had been ordered for the whole of the Scottish road network for the winter period.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. wingpig
    Member

    Maybe they meant the overall weight of 'street' salt, cut with other soluble corrosion enhancers and abrasive particles.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. Min
    Member

    I reckon it would take me a good couple of hours to note down all the potholes on my route, by the time I have noted down all the streetlamp numbers and so on. They really just need to resurface the entire road from North Bridge to Lady Road.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. steveo
    Member

    Oh yes - you don't need to be insured either.

    Need details of damage + location of pothole - photo very desirable.
    I broke a spoke on the roady after hitting pot hole, never thought of claiming for it. Just took it as a hint to buy better wheels.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    "They really just need to resurface the entire road from North Bridge to Lady Road"

    And Bruntsfield to Comiston.

    And…

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    And...

    And...

    And...

    There are some REALLY nast bits. One on Mountcastle Drive North is basically invisible in the dark, so if you didn't know it was there, at the bottom of a long downhill, with a road narrowing ahead meaning the natural line takes you right into the middle of it, with it stretching virtually the width of the road... I only just remembered riding home last night (not my usual route) and swerved left to kerb hug past it.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. kaputnik
    Moderator

    One pothole so big westbound on Gilmore Place at the bus stop just past Viewforth that they've just put security fencing and a couple of "go right" signs around it. A veritable paddling pool.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    "they've just put security fencing and a couple of "go right" signs around it"

    They should do that on more roads - with just enough room for bikes to get through...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. wingpig
    Member

    At this very moment the West Port crater complex is being bodgily-patched, working from east to west. No steamrollers are being used, so it'll be the tamping-power of a 90kg human versus the ripping capabilities of motor traffic weighing a tonne or more.

    IMAG0235 by wingpig, on Flickr

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. spytefear
    Member

    Yeah I saw them out in force on Hope St blocking the traffic and rushing the job to get out of the way at 8am a few days ago... good luck keeping that in place for the rest of the week...
    Oh and I tried to claim against the council last year for bike damage and was told
    "The pothole you hit was known about and on our list of to do fixes we would get around to. As it was a known pot hole council is not liable"
    EH!?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. wingpig
    Member

    Maybe they maintain a warning list of famous potholes, for which they claim to be able to shirk liability on the grounds that they've notified the public of the dangers, perhaps printed in 3pt Flyspeck Sans and pasted at the top of a lamp-post outside their offices or on some obscure 'beware of the leopard'-style unfindable and unlinked nook of their website.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. ruggtomcat
    Member

    @spitfire standard response, because of the increase in liability claims the councils have been making sure all road defect are recorded and marked as 'to do'.

    In this way they cannot be liable as they have recognized the hazard and are taking reasonable steps to correct it and therefor are not being negligent. Now all you can take them to task for is not doing their task list fast enough, which is no basis for a claim.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Rugg, how can the Council actually prove that all road defects are known about and recorded? Or rather, how can an individual prove that a defect was not known about prior to the time of reporting?

    If defects are known, is there a 'reasonable' length of time in which one could expect repairs to be effected? When does a defect become so entrenched in the road users' minds that for a Council to ignore it itself becomes negligence? What duties does a Council actually have upon itself to provide a safe environment for road users?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. ruggtomcat
    Member

    All great questions, Im just framing this in the current litigious climate, but really it comes down to weather the council is spending our money wisely or not, are they prioritizing essential infrastructure maintenance or vanity projects and other cash sinks (New Scottish parliament building anyone?).

    Roads inspectors tour regularly noting any defects they find and I wouldn't be surprised if our reports to Clarence dont also count.

    This all comes from a doco on ambulance chasers in the UK btw.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Extra £15m given to fix potholes on Scotland's roads
    "

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12187953

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. kaputnik
    Moderator

    roads

    and cyclepaths?

    If Edinburgh council manages to spend the equivalent of a year's budget in a month filling potholes with loose temporary tarmac (as the EEN figures would suggest) then it's going to need a lot more than this "3 times the usual annual amount" to set things right properly. We really don't need £15 million of loose, soft tarmac tamped down by garden rakes.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  19. kaputnik
    Moderator

    The pothole you hit was known about and on our list of to do fixes we would get around to. As it was a known pot hole council is not liable

    I was thinking about this on my ride to work this morning. Basically, I boiled it down in my brain to; if you do the honourable thing and report a pothole to Clarence the Lion then it gives the council a get out of jail free card for any potential litigation but does not oblige them to expedite repairs to a satisfactory standard. T.I.E.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  20. Arellcat
    Moderator

    I think you're spot on, kaputnik. By reporting a pothole to a Council that may -- or may not -- have any intention of repairing it, the ball lies very firmly in the Council's court as far as claims for damages go. By not reporting them at all, the risk becomes higher for pedestrian injuries and vehicle damage but equally higher is the opportunity for liability and possible compensation to be appropriately defined.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  21. kaputnik
    Moderator

    So the moral of the story is; if you must damage your bike on a pothole, make sure it's not one that's been reported.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  22. wingpig
    Member

    If anyone wants to visit a completely pothole-free stretch of road they've almost finished resurfacing the Gardner's Crescent-proximal section of Fountainbridge. There's a nice red car park down the side of it now, too.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    "Winter potholes may never be repaired"

    "
    POTHOLES could be left unrepaired or money taken from schools because winter road maintenance will cost £120 million more than was originally budgeted for, Scotland's councils warned yesterday. Ministers have offered only an extra £15 million to help plug the gap.
    "

    http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/Winter-potholes-may-never-be.6691400.jp

    Posted 13 years ago #

  24. chdot
    Admin

    "
    A cyclist's view: As if things weren't bad enough...

    Published Date: 15 January 2011

    By Unknown

    MY JOURNEY to work by bicycle became a bit more challenging recently, writes Ian Maxwell.
    Once the snows melted on the main roads, great cracks and potholes opened up, particularly along the edge and gutters, and at bus stops.

    It means that it's even more essential to cycle positively by taking up position in the main part of the road, rather than skulking in the gutters or weaving in and out of parked cars. The cracks are worst at the edge, and a cyclist who falls off because of an unexpected pothole risks a lot more than bent wheels, especially if the vehicle behind cannot stop easily on the slippy or wet road surface.

    Broken bones, head injuries or worse are the cyclist's nightmare, although thankfully these injuries are rare.

    With our city roads already scarred with patches, and with slush or rainwater lying on the road surface, it can be tricky to spot these new potholes.

    Journeys to and from work at this time of year are in the dark or half light, making things even more difficult.

    Ian Maxwell is a member of Spokes, the Lothian Cycle Campaign

    "

    http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland/A-cyclist39s-view-As-if.6691399.jp

    Posted 13 years ago #

  25. rosscbrown
    Member

    Forgive me, but who are Clarence? Are they the council? Are they a department of the council 'rebranded' as to confuse people into thinking they are not part of the council? Are they a consortium of councils (what could possibly go wrong with that idea)? Or are they a private company?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  26. recombodna
    Member

    Clarence is a fictional lion who supposedly fixes pot holes.....Ha! I think he works for the council though.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  27. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Clarence
    249 High Street, Edinburgh, EH1 1YJ
    Tel: 0800 232323
    Email: clarence@edinburgh.gov.uk
    "
    I assume staff are employed by CEC.

    I think it was set up in Lothian Region days and is still used by Midlothian -

    http://www.midlothian.gov.uk/Article.aspx?TopicId=0&ArticleId=21775

    - don't know about other councils.

    If there is anyone on here with more detailed info, but don't want to post under their log-in, please PM me.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  28. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Jingle on the wireless used to go "call Clarence, 0800, 23-23-23."

    (you'll recall the tune)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  29. rosscbrown
    Member

    CLARENCE, the Customer Lighting And Roads ENquiry CEntre

    Looks like it is a shared telephone reporting line type system. The 0800232323 number looks common between a number of Councils across the UK

    Posted 13 years ago #

  30. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Clarence the lion actually gets his name from the Customer Lighting And Roads ENquiry CEntre.

    (Edit: bah, beaten to it!)

    An Ian Hislop (presumably not that one) chased up CEC in 2009 about targets for repairing road defects. Agreed response times were 85% of defects to be repaired within three days, and 90% of street lights to be repaired within 7 days.

    At that time, 13.4% of road defects had not been repaired within the target time. CEC responsed with the statistics that were held for all defects:

    "1. The percentage of repairs carried out within 3 days
    2. The average response times
    3. The percentage reported from different sources
    4. Defects awaiting repair
    5. Defects on main routes."

    On the query about defects not repaired within three days:

    "Resources are allocated to defect repairs in order to meet the set target."

    On the query about the longest outstanding road defect:

    "Of the 13.4% the longest defect was outstanding for 120 days."

    On the query about priority classification for road defects:

    "Road defects are priority defects."

    Posted 13 years ago #

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