"slippy gubbins" should be the technical term.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Leith Walk human-protected bike lane intervention
(190 posts)-
Posted 6 years ago #
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you mean it isn't?
Posted 6 years ago # -
Dibs on that as a band name Sally.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Apologies - Christmas took over from writing up meeting notes to add to my post of 2 weeks ago.
Comments welcome. Spokes will be responding shortly. They want to press ahead with the installation but I don't yet know who and when will decide. Councillors have been told that a short draft report ill be prepared for discussion. we will also be asking which budget will be funding these works.
In summary re the proposed replacement of the Leith Walk Orcas:
The Leith Walk programme has been subsumed into the Tram Extension programme and they are proposing to install "Cycle Splitter Kerblines" wuth reboundable bollards in the middle, in all of the locations where the Orcas had been, except at the Iona Street junction, where separators are no longer thought to be needed. These are as in "nedd1e_h"'s post of 2 weeks ago - "Chamfered kerb and bollard" https://flic.kr/p/22ETQQf.
Spokes plan to agree to this proposal as being the best of the proposed options.
The Splitters are proposed to be 3m long and spaced at 3m intervals - see https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9hW7WXFHdTjMDU1M3VYazdjcHpIVkVIYjlJQUMxVnNFTmNV/view?usp=sharing
Spokes feels that the spacing should be small enough to prevent cars going between them, but large enough for cyclists (including cargo and disabled cycles) to get between them and turn into the cycle lane easily. 2.5 to 3 metres seemed about right.
It's felt that their length and spacing ought to be the same everywhere, for consistency, however there is room for discussion. There needs to be a decent gap (or gaps) southbound across the Pilrig Street junction for cyclists to join the cycleway from Pilrig. It's assumed that gaps are also needed to allow people cycling in the main traffic lane to join the cycleways to access the ASZs or to position themselves to turn left (though staying in the traffic lane would probably be a better idea.)
Spokes' original proposal was to continue a fully segregated cycleway across the Southbound-side of the Pilrig St junction - with an access point for cyclists from Pilrig. This would be signal controlled as per that on St.Leonards to avoid conflict with pedestrians. This is probably out of scope for this work.
The cycleways will be 1.55m wide so there should be plenty of room through the 3m gaps and along the cycleway for removing Sally's slippy gubbins etc.
Any thoughts on different lengths and spacings?
I also wonder whether the lead splitters (ie the northmost on the southbound side) should have a bollard at the beginning of the splitter rather than in the middle, noting that this has been done elsewhere to reduce the risk of motorists driving into them.
Any thoughts?The Orcas were installed as a 4-week trial from 25th to 28th November, with little (or no?) consultation and no published terms of reference. Following several reports of pedestrians tripping over them, a reported broken collar bone, cyclists colliding with them and a vehicle "pinging one off" it was decided to remove them. The reported pedestrian problems were all around the southbound-side of the Pilrig junction. Here the Orcas were quite close to the crossing - see installation drawing:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1H7eUmpXxKHApy0Tm8scw9zNv5P7UGMm2Living Streets seem OK with the proposal. I shall recommending that the Access Forum is consulted to cover any disability issues.
Hope that covers it all?
Posted 6 years ago # -
Many thanks @McD! I have to go away & digest now...
Posted 6 years ago # -
Thanks again McD! Looks good.
Posted 6 years ago # -
So, I had cause to cycle down Leith Walk today towing a trailer with a telly on it, as you do.
As the segregated path end and you are unglamourously dumped back on the road, there's a car to my right indicated left which pulled instantly into the (on road) cycle path, oblivious to my presence. I was planning to take a strong primary in the left hand lane but having the car next to me prevented this. Up ahead a car is in the ASL but I'm trapped alongside a left indicating car. I quickly decide I'm going to have to go forward - there is just room on the left.
The front car is 2/3rds into the bike box and indicating left and I'm going up the left. Gulp!
I get to the front and turn to the driver to indicate that I'm going straight ahead (I didn't swear or complain at his position), his response is to pull up alongside me at the front of the bike box and start swearing at me.
I turn it up the yelling as I'm getting worried now "Don't hit me. DON'T HIT ME - I'M GOING STRAIGHT, I have a trailer, DON'T HIT ME". Good on the passing women who joined in the shouting :-)
A reasonable pause before the lights change and he doesn't move until I am well away. Phew.
I can't help thinking that Wands, Orcas or anything would have helped as I would have run alongside the 2nd car for a while and had chance to decide on a safer course of action.
P.s. Good work McD (& others)
Posted 6 years ago # -
@hankchief, as they say at the end of Chinatown, probably my favourite movie, Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown.
In this scenario you are Jake and Leith is Chinatown
Posted 6 years ago # -
Indeed. By the time I was coming back up, all was forgiven as I had some good bantz with a man wanting a lift and a car driver turning into Brunswick Street gave way to me at the Copenhagan style junction/wiggle despite it being their priority. So all good.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@hankchief - aggressive drivers make what McD is writing about all the more important.
Did the guy know you had a valuable TV on board? :-)
Surely could see you weren't out on a leisure ride!Posted 6 years ago # -
HankChief might have been better off in one of these:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/podride-a-practical-and-fun-bicycle-car-bike-bicycle--2
Thanks for the support people. No comments though?Posted 6 years ago # -
So uh... what was happening with this again? Didn't the council say they were going to do something? There's a distinct lack of something being done.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Good question. We were promised wands! Sending chasing email now.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Spokes has received the following answers to the points that we raised, the design being for kerbed separation with reboundable bollards:
Regarding the Orca replacement we are well on with the design and are awaiting the outcome of the Road Safety Audit. Unfortunately we had closed the final account with the Phase 4 contractor so are currently running a quick procurement to appoint a contractor to carry out the work, we will be on site as soon as that procurement concludes and the RSA is finalised. Regarding the points you raised, these were discussed with the design team and outcome is set out below. I am sure Alan will forward you the final drawing for information.
The kerb sides are painted white or black and white striped for visibility.
Response: No as the city wants to maintain consistency for road users and there are maintenance issues with such an approach.The bollards should be clearly marked - the Rediweld site shows red and white stickers as an example.
Response: The bollards will be clearly markedThe reboundable bollard on the first (from the approach direction) kerbline should be placed at the front edge of the splitter rather than in the middle as appears to be the case for all the bollards in the drawings. Some online examples of this situation include a "cyclists left" arrow and are made highly visible with stickers etc (as suggested above).
Response: Bollard moved but no need for symbol as the lane is already delineated.The length and spacing should be such that cyclists, including those on cargo and all-ability bikes, can easily enter and leave the cycleway at any point, but drivers are deterred from entering the cycleway/parking. This is especially relevant for cyclists joining the cycleway when coming from Pilrig St and heading south. The proposed 3m spacing seems suitable.
Response: Agreed and included in the revised drawingSpace needs to be suitable to accommodate sweeping/cleaning of the cycleway.
Response: This is accommodated in the revised drawingConsistent length and spacing seems appropriate, to minimise confusion.
Response: NotedOn-road markings should be considered to highlight the splitters and to deter parking.
Response: This is not required and there are space constraintsSupplementary questions:
Which budget is funding these works?
Response: Leith Programme Phase 4 BudgetWould these works need modification to accommodate the tram extension?
Response: Not for permanent works but may need to be temporarily set aside during construction – they will be reinstatedAre these a custom-built solution and how will they be fixed to the road?
Response: These are fixed in the same way as any kerbHow and when will a decision be made on what will be installed?
Response: Decision has been taken to proceed as set out above.Posted 6 years ago # -
So what is it exactly that lorries will soon be driving over the top of? Kerb and wands?
Posted 6 years ago # -
Nah, they'll just switch to the actual segregated shared use footway/cycleway I imagine. Less chance of scraping the paintwork, innit guv?
Unless (hollow laughter) parking enforcement is somehow stepped up on Leith Walk to keep the cycleways and footways clear...
Posted 6 years ago # -
Posted 6 years ago # -
@crowriver
What's the odds the outsourcing contract for the wardens doesn't have them on per-ticket commission?
@unhurt
I fear Leith locals might find ancillary uses for that infrastructure...
Posted 6 years ago # -
we had closed the final account with the Phase 4 contractor
The drain covers through the McDonald Road junction are already collapsing through consolidation of the ground beneath.
What did they use to form the lid bases, foam bricks? Crummock must have a culture of "good enough" to see them through snagging liability then on to the next job
Posted 6 years ago # -
Posted 6 years ago #
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Very nice looking setup
Posted 6 years ago # -
McD has covered it pretty comprehensively, but for completeness, here's my response from the TEC Policy Advisor dudette:
Thank you for your email. In regard to the replacements, I can advise that the Orca replacement design is now almost complete and the Council will be installing bollards on fixed kerbs at 3m centres. In finalising the design we have had a number of discussions with representatives from Spokes who have provided some very useful feedback. The design team is now awaiting the outcome of the formal Road Safety Audit before finalising the proposal for construction. In parallel the Council is running a procurement to appoint a contractor and work will commence as soon as the procurement concludes and the contractor is mobilised, which we anticipate being in the coming weeks.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Saw this and thought of Leith Walk ... (especially the parked on bike lanes)
https://twitter.com/urbanthoughts11/status/973902712030064640
I don't speak German but the gist of it seems to be: park your bike right in the middle of the road with a sign on it saying 'just popped into the shop, back in 5 mins'.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Latest news from Rob Leech:
The contract is now in place to install the delineators as per our previous discussions. It was awarded on 5 March and materials were ordered immediately by the Contractor. The lead-in on materials is approximately 5 weeks so I anticipate work starting on site after the Easter break.The reason the contract was not awarded until 5 March was due to the Road Safety Audit taking longer than anticipated and the fact the Council had to run a procurement as the Crummock final account had been settled and the completion certificate for Leith Programme Phase 4 issued.
Posted 6 years ago # -
So we'll have about 12 months to enjoy the facilities before Leith Walk is dug up for the tram and portacabins, HERA fencing etc. are dumped all over them...
Hurry up LiDL and finish the Easter Road store so my journeys down Leith Walk can be fewer in 2019...
Posted 6 years ago # -
Left hand, right hand.
Posted 6 years ago # -
"23rd April – 4th May: MacKenzie Construction undertaking works to install cycleway delineators at the locations noted above"
Posted 6 years ago # -
So, do these people know about the tram plans? I hope they keep the receipts for these kerbs.
Posted 6 years ago # -
It's worth it even if they only stay for a couple of years.
Hopefully a good lesson learned that can feed into the tram plans
Posted 6 years ago # -
If the uphill section becomes segregated from the traffic light onwards will this change the behaviour of cyclists at the red light? Will this change the expected behaviour?
If people in the bike lane start ignoring the red light more, there will be more conflict with pedestrians who have the green light outside Gaia. Hopefully this conflict will be 'manageable' because speeds will be slower because people won't feel as pressured to pelt it alongside motor vehicles.
Oh the excitement of repeatedly patching a bad design!
Posted 6 years ago #
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