CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Edinburgh Tram Extension to Newhaven

(319 posts)

12…11

  1. McD
    Member

    Spokes has been invited to meet with the Tram Programme in the next couple of weeks and I'm looking for issues/suggestions/etc to raise at this initial meeting.

    I've also been considering setting up an East End & Leith Cycling Group to cover the multiple developments in the area - maybe along the lines of the very successful Roseburn group. This topic could kick it off maybe - should that be a separate thread?

    Initial thoughts etc re the Extension:

    Assume that the tram will go the way it was originally planned, i.e. Leith Walk, Constitution Street, Ocean Drive, and the east and south sides of Ocean Terminal, to a terminus to the north of Lindsay Road near Asda.

    Assume that the discussions will cover the whole route from York Place to Newhaven and would like to discuss cycle provision along the whole of the route, including what were Phases 5 and 6 of the Leith Walk programme ie continuous, segregated cycleways from McDonald Road to Picardy Place/Leith Street.

    A few specific problem areas:

    (1) all right turns off the tram route, particularly in Leith Walk. They are likely to need different treatment from those in the city centre as very few of them have traffic lights.

    (2) the junction at the Foot of the Walk, which will cause severe problems for cyclists heading from Leith Walk to Duke Street as they will be crossing the tracks at an extremely shallow angle. Even cyclists going between Great Junction Street and Duke Street will be affected as they will be taking a curve.

    (3) the closure of the south end of Constitution Street: there will need to be an alternative route for cyclists heading that way possibly via a cycle-specific route through the Kirkgate.

    (4) access to Ocean Terminal and its current semi-sheltered bike parking. The tram line will cut off the main Ocean Terminal building from the roads in Leith and from the North Edinburgh Path Network.

    (5) Ocean Drive is only just wide enough for two tram tracks. There will have to be a parallel cycle route,either on pavement or further southpast Victoria Quay.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  2. Rosie
    Member

    Sightly O/T, but getting rid of trams is a poor idea, too often pursued. From a friend who spends a lot of time in the old Soviet Union:-

    "Don't understand why so many post-Soviet capital cities are getting rid of their trams; first Tbilisi (in favour of utter anarchy on the roads), then Tashkent (in favour of Karimov's vanity), now Almaty. Bad town planning., really.... Plus the old Sov trams were such fun to travel on, not least to admire their admonitions like "The best inspector is your conscience""

    Tbilsi has one of the nastiest inner city roundabouts I've ever seen. Those on foot cross by subway. A real blot in an otherwise agreeable city centre.

    No lessons from history:-

    "'Tashkent Mayor Rakhmonbek Usmonov announced on March 29, 2016, that the network would close by year's end in order to make way for more cars and thus aid in reducing congestions within the capital"

    Posted 6 years ago #

  3. Frenchy
    Member

    Tbilsi has one of the nastiest inner city roundabouts I've ever seen.

    This one? It's...wow...

    Posted 6 years ago #

  4. Rosie
    Member

    @ Frenchy - for some reason you get a nanosecond of the roundabout & then it goes to a larger map. But we did wonder that there weren't constant collisions.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  5. Frenchy
    Member

    Fixed link (hopefully): https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/41.71286/44.78308

    Posted 6 years ago #

  6. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Loving the 'Heroes Monument' in the middle. You get your name inscribed if you reach it alive?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  7. Rosie
    Member

    Not sure if that's the one. I was thinking of Freedom Square - one with a whacking gold statue of St George that replaced the whacking statue of Lenin.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  8. Frenchy
    Member

    That'll be this one?.

    Won't hold a candle to Picardy Place, though.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  9. Rosie
    Member

    That's the one - only Georgian drivers are maniacs.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  10. ih
    Member

    Assume that the tram will go the way it was originally planned, i.e. Leith Walk, Constitution Street, Ocean Drive, and the east and south sides of Ocean Terminal, to a terminus to the north of Lindsay Road near Asda.

    I think that's a fair assumption because, as we've seen at Picardy Place, they don't like to change their plans, but....

    To me a much better option at the foot of the Walk would be to go left along Gt Junction St direct to Ocean Terminal. This would avoid the far too narrow Constitution St, and I think would serve more communities and residents of Leith, as well as go down the main shopping street. The negatives are that it wouldn't go past the trendy eateries and not so near to the Scottish Government building. Imo the trendy eaters could benefit from a slightly longer walk to the tram, and the Scottish Government staff could easily catch the tram at Ocean Terminal.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  11. crowriver
    Member

    "the far too narrow Constitution St"

    Plenty of space, if you get rid of the on-street car parking.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  12. ih
    Member

    "Plenty of space, if you get rid of the on-street car parking."

    I'm not saying you can't get a tram down there. I'm wondering why you would want to when the better route through Leith for several reasons, is along Gt Junction St. A double track on Constitution St would pretty much fill the whole width, and don't they intend to put a tramstop there?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  13. gibbo
    Member

    I don't get how this is ever going to pay for itself. These areas are already well-served by buses and now the council wants to stick something else on the road to increase congestion?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  14. Frenchy
    Member

    These areas are already well-served by buses and now the council wants to stick something else on the road to increase congestion?

    I won't pretend to know the area or bus services well enough to judge properly, but the maximum carrying capacity of a tram system is several times higher than that of buses. So, *if* done right, replacing (some) buses with a tram line should reduce congestion.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  15. wingpig
    Member

    Presumably, a tram going through the bottom end of Leith Walk and possibly going near Ocean Terminal would finally enable the frequency of the #22 to be reduced? Some of the Leith Walk bus stops are alternate/staggered; it's never quite as logjammed as Princes Street, but that might change if there was a big central reservation.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  16. neddie
    Member

    the maximum carrying capacity of a tram system is several times higher than that of buses.

    Also tram tracks allow them to ban cars altogether where the tracks are, further improving the reliability and desirability of the tram.

    They cannot completely ban vehicles from bus lanes, as we well know.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  17. Ed1
    Member

    Edinburgh bus Wright Gemini seats (typical Lothian bus) seats 70 ( 20 standing?)and is 10.6 meters long a Edinburgh tram is ‎42.8 m long and seats 78. The tram can also carry 170 standing,

    As most people expect a seat then the bus can carry more for a set length of road which a proper gap between buses if parked up 3 bus can take more seated and standing people than 1 tram and occupies less road length.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  18. steveo
    Member

    And at peak time a tram can empty those 200 people much much faster than those three buses. See Princes Street bus park.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  19. gibbo
    Member

    I won't pretend to know the area or bus services well enough to judge properly, but the maximum carrying capacity of a tram system is several times higher than that of buses. So, *if* done right, replacing (some) buses with a tram line should reduce congestion.

    Possibly.

    If you go to the bus stop at the bottom of Leith Walk (northbound lane), you'll see buses go to a number of different locations.

    Walk around the corner to Great Junction Street and the number of locations increases further.

    If you're not going to the location the tram is going, you're not going to take the tram.

    So you'll still need the vast majority of the buses - unless you create a system where someone can get off at foot of the Walk and get on a bus without paying again.

    As for banning cars:

    (A) That runs contrary to everything the council does.
    (B) Nothing in the Picardy Place plans suggest this is even considered.
    (C) What's the alternate route for those cars?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  20. acsimpson
    Member

    "'Tashkent Mayor Rakhmonbek Usmonov announced on March 29, 2016, that the network would close by year's end in order to make way for more cars and thus aid in reducing congestions within the capital"

    That's bound to end well. What links does the mayor have to the petrochemical industry?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  21. neddie
    Member

    Trams to Newhaven: Notification of First Round of Public Consultation

    Beginning 19 March, the City of Edinburgh Council will undertake six weeks of public consultation and engagement on taking Edinburgh Trams to Newhaven. This will provide the public, local business and stakeholders with general information on the project, specific details around traffic management during construction and the proposed permanent design. We will also outline our current proposals on how we aim to support local business during the construction period.

    During consultation your views will be sought on traffic management and phasing. This includes proposals for the closure of Leith Walk to all northbound traffic, with a single city-bound lane remaining open and the phased closure and reopening of Constitution Street. Work in these areas is expected to last for up to 18 months.

    These and wider plans for traffic management during construction have been drawn up following in-depth traffic modelling and discussions with key partners and stakeholders.

    We also intend to communicate our plans to help support local businesses who will be most affected by the works. This includes provision for parking and loading between work sites, an open for business campaign, on-street customer service staff, logistics hubs and financial support.

    Your opinions will also be sought on the plans for the permanent design of the street along the route. This includes a dedicated public transport-only lane on Leith Walk for tram and bus during the morning and evening rush hour. During off peak time the outside lanes will close to traffic and provide essential parking and loading areas for local business.

    This is the first stage in a consultation process that is scheduled to continue through to the end of 2018.

    Consultation 1 Begins: 19 March 2018
    • 28,000 letters delivered to residential addresses in the area surrounding the planned tram route
    • 4 public information events:
    o Thursday 23 March: Leith Theatre, 11am - 6pm
    o Tuesday 3 April: McDonald Road Library, 10am - 4pm
    o Thursday 12 April: Leith Community Education Centre, 3pm - 9pm
    o Saturday 21 April: Ocean Terminal, 12 noon - 5pm
    • 4 local business forums
    • 4 community council briefings
    • Online feedback via Consultation Hub from 19 March
    • A dedicated Trams to Newhaven website to keep you up-to-date

    Consultation 1 Ends: 29 April 2018

    As part of our consultation the project team commissioned an independent survey to understand local behaviours and attitudes towards Trams to Newhaven. The research was carried out by Progressive Partnership - an Edinburgh-based market research company. This involved a ten-minute on-street interview carried out with representative sample of 368 individuals at three locations along the proposed route.

    Below are some of the key findings:
    • 59% agreed that the line would benefit Leith with 58% saying it would be easier to get around and 42% saying it would be good for local business
    • 91% were satisfied with current transport provision on Leith Walk
    • When asked what would improve public transport provision in Leith Walk, the most popular response at 38% was 'introduce a tram service' NB most respondents currently used buses or walking to get to and around Leith
    • 56% said they were likely to use the new line
    • Among those who did not think Leith would benefit, concerns focused chiefly on disruption, delays and congestion resulting from construction works
    If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to get in touch.

    Trams to Newhaven Project Team

    Posted 6 years ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-tram-extension-would-see-200-leith-graves-exhumed-1-4701537

    Posted 6 years ago #

  23. wingpig
    Member

    Ah. I did wonder how everything was going to fit down there. I really hope there'll be a pedestrian crossing put in opposite Laurie Street (with a reduction in the ability for people to park on the corners) as it's currently a nightmare for the lollipoperative at school rush hour.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  24. McD
    Member

    Tram team well represented at Leith Library Drop-in today, including:
    Hannah x -- Senior Responsible Officer (CEC) (attended Spokes Public Meeting) - reports to Paul Lawrence
    Rob Leech - Programme Director (spoke at Spokes Public Meeting)
    Steve Jackson - Project Manager
    Rory Garriock - Community Engagement - Commsie
    Darren Wraight - Interface Manager, Deputy SRO (CEC) (ex Roads Team - early days of Roseburn and just finished WoL Murrayfield) - Techie

    Pictures of display boards. The long table display was the "landscaping" version. A1 tech drawings available on side tables.

    Reinforcement of "openness" of consultation especially as not bee out to tender yet so no contracts signed. Tendering process will be starting soon, but "traffic management" associated considerations not key - rather it's the track etc build.

    Poles, central reservations, stop locations, cycling infrastructure, traffic reduction all open for consideration and best in a holistic, rather than piecemeal view as many interdependencies.

    More later.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    “Poles, central reservations, stop locations, cycling infrastructure, traffic reduction all open for consideration and best in a holistic, rather than piecemeal view as many interdependencies.”

    Sounds good.

    BUT

    What is the point of offering such inappropriate plans for consultation?

    CEC has been doing this for years with cycle stuff.

    What a waste of paid (by Edinburgh residents) and unpaid (‘us’) time.

    I wonder how much of the problem is that most of the work is done by external contractors because CEC won’t employ enough of its own staff?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  26. dougal
    Member

    So what *is* decided? Are we just to comment as if the plans in front of us are real? Or will the defence "aye but it's not set in stone you see" be used to deflect all criticism? I have no major problems with the route...

    Posted 6 years ago #

  27. McD
    Member

    Seems that it is just the route "the Tram Corridor" is decided. Tram team say that conflicting requirements - eg business parking/delivery or traffic reduction vs segregated cycleways - for them to consult on options at this stage. They want to get all the views into the melting pot, look into key options/differences and discuss with council(lors) and get agreement on options to take forward into the Summer Autumn Consultation prior to Full Council decision in Winter 2018.
    For better cycling facilities, lots of people will need to try to influence councillors, community councils etc. as part of responding to consultation

    Posted 6 years ago #

  28. Frenchy
    Member

    I just do not get why they are consulting on a single detailed solution but saying everything but the route is still up for debate. Why not present various different options?

    And if they had to release a single plan, why such an unambitious one?

    With the LEZ, they say they're starting with as ambitious a proposal as possible, and will pare it back if necessary. Why not the same approach here?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  29. Klaxon
    Member

    In a normal procurement process the somewhat detailed single option development comes a long time after the scoping phase and the multi option development phase

    Posted 6 years ago #

  30. Morningsider
    Member

    Hmmm - four bidders have recently been short listed to tender for the tram extension infrastructure and systems contract. Tendering begins in less than a month, with the contract to be let later this year. I imagine these companies will want a very good idea what they are tendering for. Any guess as to what designs they might be basing their bids on?

    Details: http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/2454/trams_to_newhaven_four_bidders_shortlisted

    Posted 6 years ago #

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