CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Latest plans for Leith Walk - and how to deal with them

(255 posts)

No tags yet.


  1. chdot
    Admin

    “I don't think tram opposition is helpful here”

    “The tram debate has been had and won”

    “In short, the tram to Newhaven is happening”

    No, yes and perhaps.

    There is still the matter of paying for it (even allowing for the fact that trams, track and poles have been bought).

    The point is that trams are a service for the public and should not be proposed on the basis that ‘they are good for YOU and you’ll just have to deal with the inconveniences and missed opportunities’.

    Apart from the “no room” arguments here, it is a simple fact that the experience of Haymarket and Princes Street show that proper concern for walking/cycling is VITAL.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  2. Harts Cyclery
    Member

    There's plenty of room if we restrict private cars!!

    Posted 6 years ago #
  3. Morningsider
    Member

    Having had a gander at tram systems around Europe, I think there are a few features worth considering:

    1. Overhead wires suspended from buildings, or poles on both sides of the street - does away with the need for the meidan strip - you can see how this works at Shandwick Place.
    2. Tram stops have two platforms, with small tram-only section in between, with all other vehicles routed around this. Again, removes need for median strip, lengthy "tram only" sections of carriageway and minimises delays to others caused by stopping trams.
    3. Trams and other motorised vehicles share carriageway space. Even at 5 minute intervals, there are unlikely to be more than two trams travelling in either direction on Leith Walk at any one time. Interaction with other traffic should not cause too much delay (possibly none outside of rush hour).

    All this would allow enough space for nice wide pavements, segregated cycle ways and (where appropriate) some limited on-street parking. It would also allow vehicles to cross Leith Walk from the smaller side streets, which cannot happen under the current plans.

    I doubt this would really add much, if anything, to the cost.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  4. neddie
    Member

    Leith Walk absolutely MUST have segregation its full length

    I agree.

    We must fight tooth & nail for this.

    @Morningsider

    2. Tram stops have two platforms, with small tram-only section in between, with all other vehicles routed around this. Again, removes need for median strip, lengthy "tram only" sections of carriageway and minimises delays to others caused by stopping trams.

    I'm not sure it's a good idea to allow general traffic to overtake trams while they are stopped. It means the tram effectively goes to the back of the traffic queue. It also makes the route more attractive to cars, because they are not seen as "held up by trams", encouraging further traffic jams (which the tram will be stuck at the back of).

    Posted 6 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    The main problem with transport projects in Edinburgh is that they try to accommodate too many contradictory needs, i.e. parking + private car flows v active + public transport. Council has an established hierarchy of transport priorities but refuses to implement it in practice.

    https://twitter.com/nigelbagshaw/status/975708048189771781

    Posted 6 years ago #
  6. Ed1
    Member

    With Leith walk think they already moved the underground utilities a few years back, so would imagine the tram people would be committed to placing tram where it was planned when the work was done as would need to move utilities again otherwise.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    The commitment that #LeithWalk was 'tram-proofed' HERE-->edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meeti… Problem: Council now wants 4 lanes instead of 2. Solution: All traffic use tram lane offpeak (agreed); ban cars in peak + delete central reservation. NB: cars were banned Shandwick Pl in tram phase1!

    https://twitter.com/spokeslothian/status/975718866729996288?s=21

    Posted 6 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    “With Leith walk think they already moved utilities a few years back, so would imagine the tram people would be committed to placing tram where it was planned when the work was done as would need to move utilities again otherwise.”

    Except that I don’t think they believe it was done properly so some will have to be done again.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  9. Morningsider
    Member

    nedd1e_h - easily solved. The two tram stops on Leith Walk already have pedestrian crossings proposed at either end of the platform. The red phase for the appropriate side could be activated by a stopping tram - preventing any other vehicles from passing and helping to clear the route for the tram once it leaves the stop.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  10. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Except that I don’t think they believe it was done properly

    I heard they didn't touch a large number of transverse utilities, i.e. they moved utilities running along Leith Walk but left those crossing it alone.

    Presumably they'll have to build some kind of accessible culverts?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

  12. crowriver
    Member

  13. crowriver
    Member

    Here's a link to CEC's own survey on attitudes to the tram extension. Makes for interesting reading, especially the modal split for transport. This alone shows the design priorities for Leith Walk are all wrong.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0cbNVYU6ynjRW4zb0FjRUNnai0xb0JQYV9RRURqb015SDdr/view

    Posted 6 years ago #
  14. HankChief
    Member

    Fantastic work by @Kaputnik in this searing analysis of the plans.

    https://twitter.com/cocteautriplets/status/975857050629693442?s=19

    If you are not on Twitter, it is worth getting on to read this

    Posted 6 years ago #
  15. Klaxon
    Member

    Possibly the most gobsmacking statistic of that survey is that 60% of people spoken to (using face to face surveys) said they had never drove or been driven around Leith

    Never is a very long time

    Posted 6 years ago #
  16. gembo
    Member

    Last time I didn't know of someone who had a car and living in same community (central Edinburgh or west end Glasgow) was 1990. Before that from 1983 to 1989. No one I Knew had a car. Then in 1990 There was one person. I mean as friends where you could get the car included in some scheme or other. Not sure we ever did? He was the only one then. By 1992 we occasionally hired a car for work. From then until 2001 still just a very few people in central Edinburgh. But then 17 years ago last weekend a friend drove us to Balerno, where we were the only people we knew without a car. We have had three cars over the 17 years. Two scrapped. Will have to get a small one instead of the big one ( not as well as) for son who wants to learn to drive.

    Basically no need until the children became too many.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

  18. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Right, well. Proposition for you; Picardy Place was Spain 1936 and Leith Walk is France 1939. They have honed their techniques and hardened their people to the delivery of urban disaster and if we don't get smart we will be bulldozed out of the way a second time.

    We need to think about what a successful defence will look like and what weapons and ammunition it needs.

    I'd suggest;

    1) It needs a handful of charismatic leaders
    2) It needs to be driven by local residents and businesses
    3) It needs to recruit widely
    4) It needs to understand the motivations and weaknesses of the enemy
    5) It needs to get conventional media onside immediately
    6) It needs a single achievable goal (maybe halt these plans for a total community-led rethink)

    Posted 6 years ago #
  19. steveo
    Member

    I propose a battleship in the firth plenty of range to shell the whole area. Can't make it any worse.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    “2) It needs to be driven by local residents and businesses”

    Not sure about that. Clearly they need (and will want) to be heavily involved, but I suspect quite a lot of it will be ‘we don’t want the trams’.

    CEC clearly intends to ignore that viewpoint just as much (perhaps even more?) as it is unconcerned about ped/cycle issues.

    The tram is a CEC obsession - a ‘thing that must happen for its own sake’. It’s a BIG idea by BIG people and if the lesser people don’t understand these high minded motivations then tough.

    It SHOULD be a key part of a transport system designed for moving PEOPLE and mean integrating with a revised bus network and enable people to get around better than now so that they can cross roads, get to tram/bus stops and cycle instead of driving more easily.

    CEC is failing to understand/plan for that.

    It’s ‘the tram must get through at all (huge) costs’ and ‘opposition must be sidelined/steamrollered’.

    It doesn’t matter if people want/don’t want trams or like/don’t like bicycles or even prefer to drive everywhere, this is not a civic way to plan or promote a major change.

    But it looks like they expect to get away with it - and probably will - IF they can get the money.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  21. Klaxon
    Member

    A ‘community lead rethink’ is a bad idea - too many competing views. Such design by committee can result in the worst of all worlds. The road design should be done by contemporary design outfit that can demonstrate competence in reintroducing trams to an urban area in a way that harmonises with the local area.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  22. c30c60
    Member

    Note - The wrong date was put up on the Transform Scotland website for the first public consultation. Should be Thursday 22 March: Leith Theatre, 11am-6pm. I've asked them to correct it.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    “6) It needs a single achievable goal (maybe halt these plans for a total community-led rethink)”

    That would be my preference, but I don’t know how it can be achieved.

    I’m sure there are things going on behind the scenes, but so far only Spokes, and a few people on here hand a couple of councillors) have done anything ‘public’.

    Is there any info on what the brief for the consultants who have produced these plans was?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    “A ‘community lead rethink’ is a bad idea - too many competing views.”

    Yes/no.

    I think these plans should be withdrawn. Don’t see a big enough outcry coming to make that happen.

    It’s not about (re)design by committee, more a discussion about what the priorities are.

    I don’t mean tram yes/no - though clearly there are those who would prefer no tram.

    I think it’s perfectly reasonable to know what sort of bus system is being proposed if/when the tram line is extended.

    It’s also perfectly reasonable to expect CEC to deliver safe cycle infrastructure given the problems the first attempt at a tram line have created.

    And there can be little justification for removing pedestrian crossings.

    These are good enough reasons for withdrawing the current proposals, but...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  25. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    A ‘community lead rethink’ is a bad idea - too many competing views. Such design by committee

    In my mind 'lead' isn't the same as 'do'. A community can say what it wants and engage a professional to deliver it. A brutal comparison would be with medical care. You say what's up, they lay out the options, you decide and they do it.

    My point was that that the people who live there have to say what they want, otherwise they get what people who don't live there want i.e. this.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  26. Klaxon
    Member

    Is there any info on what the brief for the consultants who have produced these plans was?

    As agreed at committee the design being put out as ‘model’ for tender purposes is the original tram design

    Wording is something along the lines of ‘the tender is for a design and build contract, the selected contractor will be provided with the design documents developed during phase 1 which they will be allowed to vary’

    The implication I read at the time is that there’s freedom to change anything within the limits of deviation, but nobody will, because that means re-doing a large amount of work they’re getting handed gratis.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  27. Klaxon
    Member

    IWRAS: Gotcha. I had images of drawing being done on a whiteboard at LCCC.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  28. Morningsider
    Member

    The tram extension project is Picardy Place on stilts (probably shouldn't say that - might just give them ideas). I can see no realistic possibility of the project being "paused" or any community-led re-design. I genuinely think we need to work within what is going on.

    Councillors need to be won over quickly, before officers get them thinking that nothing can be changed. I honestly think the best way of doing this is picture evidence from around Europe (Street view is good for this), showing well designed tram/walking/cycling streets and then simply saying "This is what we want, why are you proposing something less than what our international competitors are providing?".

    In addition, the current designs need to be constructively criticised. To my mind there are a couple of decent lines of attack:

    Equality Act 2010: Public sector equality duty - Public bodies have to consider all individuals when carrying out their day-to-day work. Removing pedestrian crossings, anti-pedestrian paving etc. are clearly detrimental to elderly and disabled people - definitely worth mentioning.

    Policy: The street user hierarchy (walk, cycle, public transport, service vehicles, private car) - is set out in Designing Streets (http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2010/03/22120652/6), which feeds in to all local authority transport plans/strategies. The proposed design does not follow this hierarchy, or the policy priorities set out in the National Transport Strategy, Edinburgh Local Transport Strategy, Active Travel Action Plan, Edinburgh Transport Vision 2030 etc.

    Pointing this out didn't help with Picardy Place, but there has to be some point to all these documents and I don't see much alternative.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin


    Here's a wee diagram to illustrate the total disconnect between plans and reality. There's a determined attempt to engineer pedestrian flow on Leith Walk as if it was a through motorway. Except it's not, it's a busy high street with most people following non-conformal paths

    https://twitter.com/cocteautriplets/status/976020789173653504

    Posted 6 years ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin

    “As agreed at committee the design being put out as ‘model’ for tender purposes is the original tram design“

    Thanks.

    In short, not even the imagination to realise that old ideas might benefit from factoring in things learned in last 10 years!!!

    Posted 6 years ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.


Video embedded using Easy Video Embed plugin