CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
The first drop-in information event is tomorrow:
Public Information Event - Leith Theatre
From 22 Mar 2018 from 11:00 to 18:00
More information about the event Public Information Event - Leith Theatre
Leith Theatre
28-30 Ferry Road
Edinburgh
EH6 4AE
“Actually, although there's a copyright mark dated 2013, these consultation drawings are dated 14/3/2018”
Ta, shows how much time I’ve spent studying them...
“Which means they've been working on them for five years. Let that sink in for a moment.”
Assuming that that 2013 indicates when the files were first created.
Certainly not done overnight and presumably aware of some recent developments.
Is the original briefing document anywhere in public?
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Just chaired the cross-party oversight group for tram extension. Clear statement from all involved that the tram consultation is a genuine attempt to get comments in order to address issues by amending designs.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/adamrmcvey/status/976471290247897091
“We have demonstrated through this process a willingness to listen and to take new ideas on board where possible and we will do so again.”
Council Picardy Place news release, 18 November 2017 - http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/2394/latest_picardy_place_designs_revealed
Breath holding postponed for the moment.
So the tram extension will pass through four different wards (City Centre, Leith Walk, Leith and Forth). Councillors for those wards are listed below, along with surgery times and email addresses. I'll post list of councillors who sit on the Transport and Environment Committee later. Just in case anyone wants to let them know what they think of these plans.
City Centre:
Leith
Forth
@ Frenchy
Thanks, very useful.
Transport and Environment Committee members:
Additionally, the following members are listed in a post above this, as they represent one of the local wards:
Karen Doran (vice convenor) - City Centre
Eleanor Bird - Forth
Chas Booth - Leith
Worth noting, since I presume I'm not the only person who doesn't know them without checking, that school holidays are Friday 30 March to Monday 16 April 2018. This will affect the following councillors' surgeries:
Claire Miller (not on 3rd Monday. 23rd April will still be on).
Chas Booth (not on 3rd and 10th April. 17th and 24th April will still be on).
Gordon Munro (not on 2nd April. 30th March will still be on).
Eleanor Bird (not on 4th April. 18th April will still be on).
George Gordon (none before end of consultation).
Lesley Macinnes (none before end of consultation).
Graeme Bruce (none before end of consultation).
Nick Cook (not on 14th April. Still on for 28th April).
Warning - swearing....
https://www.reddit.com/r/Edinburgh/comments/85r8co/planned_layout_of_leith_walk_for_trams_blocks/
“Warning - swearing....”
I’m sure CCE is too sanitised for some, but I’m glad that regular posters abide by Rule 2 so well.
Some of the posts on the Reddit thread sound familiar!
The argument that ‘they are not finished plans’ will sound a bit hollow to most people here.
This is stating the effin obvious but if one of the aims of the trams is to get folk out of their effin cars why not reduce the lanes for motorised vehicles when the trams go in? Has kind of worked along Princes Street
Lessons from Bordeaux, Dijon, Freiburg, etc: Trams are great *if* you use them as a catalyst to change how the city centre operates. When you put the tram in, take away the parking, pedestrianise the centre, make it a pleasant environment to walk around in.
CEC has bottled it. I don't know if it originally planned to improve the centre but was too scared to once the tram project went wrong, or if it assumed that you could just stick 40m long vehicles down its main roads without any issues. Either way, it's showing a pathetic lack of vision. Beyond useless.
“Either way, it's showing a pathetic lack of vision. Beyond useless.”
Yep, and it’s not like ’they’ haven’t had a few years to ponder on previous efforts.
AND there has been a fairly significant turnover in politicians and senior officials and measurable changes in public opinion.
WHY is this still happening???
If it was as simple as ‘bribery and corruption’ that at least would be an explanation.
This is just baffling really.
There seem to be too many people who would rather make false promises ‘we are listening and will change things’ or deny the past and refuse to even try a different way of doing things.
Never attribute to malice anything adequately explained by incompetence.
“Never attribute to malice anything adequately explained by incompetence”
OK, but I don’t think “incompetence” is a sufficient word for perpetuating mistakes on this scale!
Ignorance?
If this is a correct definition then I don’t think it’s the right word.
“
Ignorance is a lack of knowledge. [1][2]The word ignorant is an adjective that describes a person in the state of being unaware, and can describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts, or individuals who are unaware of important information or facts. Ignorance can come in three different types: factual ignorance (absence of knowledge of some fact), objectual ignorance (unacquaintance with some actual object), and technical ignorance (absence of knowledge of how to do something that could actually be done).[3]
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I can only put it down to fear. Fear of the grief they will get from drivers, shopowners, double parkers, the Evening News. That grief is guaranteed and immediate, whereas a bit of belief is required to expect positive reaction to an improved city centre environment 4 or 5 years in the future.
The fact that it CEC's *job* to plan for the future that we all want to see rather than accommodate negative aspects of the present seems to have been forgotten by officials.
“Evening News. That grief is guaranteed and immediate”
Well EN didn’t exactly praise them over #PicardyPlace.
Sustrans was very quick to condemn new LW plans.
Twitter (a minor irritant of course) isn’t exactly praising CEC’s bold plans.
There may be an ‘Edinburgh looks forward to a new LW’ page on FB, but I won’t be looking for it.
“whereas a bit of belief is required to expect positive reaction to an improved city centre environment 4 or 5 years in the future”
Yes, if only CEC was better at explaining why it knows what it’s doing (and it’ll be worth the wait), then we could all shut up and go cycling.
“The fact that it CEC's *job* to plan for the future that we all want to see rather than accommodate negative aspects of the present seems to have been forgotten by officials.”
Perhaps.
It’s hard to work out what their motivation and intent is.
It’s easy to say they care more about #TrafficFlow than #ActiveTravel (I often do), but that seems to be a simple truth.
Are they doing what they think councillors want or doing what councillors DO want?
"I don’t think “incompetence” is a sufficient word for perpetuating mistakes on this scale!"
It's not incompetence or even fear. It's systemic bias, political calculation and awareness of vested interests.
Council officers (and presumably consultants) know full well that the *only* meaningful challenges to TROs can be on three grounds: loss of or changes to loading bays; prohibition of vehicles and/or one way carriage restrictions; and restrictions on bus services. Objections on any of these bases, if not withdrawn, may lead to a "hearing" and Scottish government involvement. Thus causing potentially very large delays to the project.
So the designs are very obviously attempting to head off challenges and objections on these grounds by attempting to preserve as many loading bays, bus stops, and general traffic lanes as possible.
This systemic bias in favour of parking/loading and motor bus services is built into the planning legislation. Ultimately meaningful change can only come about if either of the following happen:
- Planning rules around TROs are changed by act of parliament (good idea but don't hold your breath).
- Council shows political determination to follow transport policies, enact real change and take the delays (and possible cost overruns) on the chin.
- Council provides reasonable alternative facilities to appease objectors nearby (e.g. on side streets) but then stokes wrath of residents' "I want to park outside by house" lobby.
Given that the Council has only a limited amount of time before the powers in the tram act expire, you can see how they might choose to mitigate risk to their project by getting the objector appeasement in first. They're taking the path of least resistance, literally. Objections by cyclists, pedestrians, literally don't count for much legally speaking, so can be largely ignored. That's the harsh reality, regardless of what council transport policies may or may not aspire to.
Of course, if elected councillors were faced with huge media outcry, civil disobedience, legal challenges, etc. the political will might change direction. Does anyone really think that scenario is possible?
(EDIT - Amended after checking the fascinating "The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (Scotland) Regulations 1999" and discovering that Scotland has an additional ground for objection compared to England & Wales (i.e. traffic restrictions/one way running).).
“Does anyone really think that scenario is possible?”
Yes, but not here because #ThisIsEdinburgh.
"...to preserve as many ... bus stops"
People still need to cross the street to use bus stops, except perhaps where they live on the same side of the street on a circular route.
Is it worth writing to equivalent planning/consulting bodies from more historic yet tram-sporting cities in more advanced countries asking them to comment on the plans? Obviously Edinburgh has years of practise at ignoring suggestions by the likes of Jan Gehl but being advised that "your plans are garbage" by other planners rather than mere street-inhabitants and users might have more impact.
Meanwhile, they seem to be "just getting on with it" in Glasgow, and building the South City Way...
..which actually looks good.
Today
The first drop-in information event is tomorrow:
Public Information Event - Leith Theatre
From 22 Mar 2018 from 11:00 to 18:00
More information about the event Public Information Event - Leith Theatre
Leith Theatre
28-30 Ferry Road
Edinburgh
EH6 4AE
Meanwhile, they seem to be "just getting on with it" in Glasgow, and building the South City Way...
..which actually looks good.
Yes. Looks exemplar. None of that weaving around bins that Edinburgh seems to favour.
From Leith Central Community Council:
The tram team will attend the next LCCC meeting on 16 April for a presentation and Q&A session. The meeting is open to the public and we would encourage local residents and businesses to attend.
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The consultation is open. No decisions have been made yet. This is genuinely up for discussion, unlike Picardy Place where the council's hands were tied. Constructive engagement most likely to deliver the change that most of us seek.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/cllrchasbooth/status/976813280009314304
Is Chas too naive or am I too world wearily cynical?
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“No decisions have been made yet”
Apart from legal constraints in SP re tram and decisions that went into briefing @atkinsglobal & decision that these plans were worthy of consultation at this stage
LW proposals need rethink not tinkering
Why should public have to fix this?
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https://mobile.twitter.com/cyclingedin/status/976814992564596736
Is this true?
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Except planning permission for the route to Leith has already been approved, along with associated TRO
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https://mobile.twitter.com/fountainbridge/status/976815458635706369
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