CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Leith Walk cycle lanes are shared use?

(47 posts)
  • Started 6 years ago by EdinburghCycleCam
  • Latest reply from CycleAlex

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  1. EdinburghCycleCam
    Member

    Hi all,

    Following on from @KnitBikeNom's tweet here: https://twitter.com/KnitBikeNom/status/1002516703077634048
    I asked @edinhelp about this, and got the following e-mail:

    --------------------
    The signs installed on the cycle lane on the footway at Leith walk are to remind cyclists that the cycle lane is a shared area i.e. cyclists AND pedestrians are allowed in this area (as opposed to a segregated cycle only lane)

    These specific signs (A) have been located on the footway adjacent to areas where pedestrians are more likely to cross the cycle lane i.e. at a bus stop

    If the cycle lane was segregated sign (B) would be installed to advise of the separate cycle path.
    --------------------

    Where the attached (A) and (B) images are the standard "shared use" and "cycles one side, pedestrians the other side, like on the meadows" signs.

    So I guess that means that the cycle lanes on Leith Walk aren't segregated cycle lanes after all, but are shared use?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  2. neddie
    Member

    So I guess that means that the cycle lanes on Leith Walk aren't segregated cycle lanes after all, but are shared use?

    No, it only means that near the road crossings, where the segregated lanes revert to inappropriate shared-use awfulness

    Posted 6 years ago #

  3. EdinburghCycleCam
    Member

    Oh!

    It helps if I read the e-mail properly I guess...

    Posted 6 years ago #

  4. paulmilne
    Member

    It looks like it is designating that bit of path next to the bus stop as shared use. The bicycle icon further along seems to indicate it then goes back to a cycleway.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  5. Klaxon
    Member

    Does anyone still have a copy of the RSOs saved?

    This seems like concerning backpedalling

    Posted 6 years ago #

  6. dougal
    Member

    I read it as "it's always been shared, this is a reminder". I mean, what even is a segregated cycle lane? Where are pedestrians not allowed to walk?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  7. Roibeard
    Member

    Where are pedestrians not allowed to walk?

    Just motorways, and similar.

    Robert

    Posted 6 years ago #

  8. Frenchy
    Member

    My reading was the same as @dougal's. Are there any cycleways which pedestrians aren't also allowed to use?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  9. EdinburghCycleCam
    Member

    None I'm aware of, but shared use implies pedestrians should be there. At least on segregated cycle lanes they "shouldn't" be there, even if there's no law or anything preventing it. If that makes any sense...

    TBH, I hate using these lanes anyway - I go at half the speed I would on the road, and never trust anyone to give way at junctions. Still, it's better than the hassle I get for cycling on the road when there's a "perfectly good" cycle lane there...

    Posted 6 years ago #

  10. dougal
    Member

    If it's Shared Use does that mean the whole width is a shared path? Or are there patches of Pedestrian Only with Shared Use in the middle, which sounds a lot like Segregated to me... as ever, clarity tending towards mud.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  11. EdinburghCycleCam
    Member

    Yeah, re-reading it again, it sounds to me like the whole length (I presume you mean length rather than width?) is shared use, and the signage is just placed here to remind people of this.

    I don't suppose these lanes being shared use rather than segregated makes any difference of course, apart from making things even more confusing than they are currently.

    To me it seems that the cycle lanes are for cyclists only, and pedestrians shouldn't be in them (of course people do walk in them), but now it seems that they're shared use and pedestrians are free to use them and if they feel like it, block the lane completely, since you technically can't legally cycle off the lane to go around them?

    Fun fun fun.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  12. dougal
    Member

    I meant width as in the whole width of the pavement, from buildings to kerb. But yes I think we're talking about the same thing - pedestrians can use the full width of the pavement and cyclists can use the delineated bit in the middle if there's nobody standing in it.

    Of course right now there's some pedestrian diversion onto the road between bus stop and Sainsburys - is that for cyclists too?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  13. Edinburgh Cycle Training
    Member

    I would have thought the 'footpath' is building line to kerb and all shared use, so technically/legally pedestrians and cyclists are free to mingle freely. What CEC appear to have done is install something that resembles a segregated cycle lane, to 'encourage' separation?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  14. dougal
    Member

    An interesting interpretation!

    Posted 6 years ago #

  15. EdinburghCycleCam
    Member

    Let's ask the "experts": https://twitter.com/Lollercake/status/1003666850226606081

    Posted 6 years ago #

  16. dougal
    Member

    I love a good expert.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  17. crowriver
    Member

    I think the position in law is that cyclists are not supposed to cycle on the footway. However these particular footways have sections clearly marked that cyclists may use. That doesn't stop pedestrians from using them.

    So this differs from, say the shared footway along Seafield to Portobello Prom in that there, the whole width is shared use. On Leith Walk only the cycleway marked section, and the bits at junctions, are shared use.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  18. EdinburghCycleCam
    Member

    The law is that if it's a space which is split between pedestrians and cycles (like the meadows) rather than shared use, then the non-cycle part is considered a footway, so cycling on it is the same as cycling on the pavement.

    I've no idea how that applies if it's shared use, however.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  19. crowriver
    Member

    Pretty sure the law is the same when applied to the Leith Walk cycleways. Pedestrians may enter the sections designated for bicycles but bicycles may not enter the rest of the footway.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  20. Edinburgh Cycle Training
    Member

    This question then would be legal demarcation. Do the tactiles count? I wish I knew more about this stuff!

    Posted 6 years ago #

  21. EdinburghCycleCam
    Member

    Yeah, I'd imagine it's the same here. Though if the whole width of the pavement is shared use, it at least makes things all legal to cycle around pedestrians milling around in the cycle lane.

    It'll also be interesting to see if they intend to mark the whole path as shared use or not - surely there needs to be sings at the start and end, and at junctions to say it's shared used? Of course, since there's no signs saying it's a cycle lane other than the bike logo painted on the surface, it's all open to interpretation anyway...

    Posted 6 years ago #

  22. Frenchy
    Member

    Added complication at the Meadows is that some of those paths are core paths, so you're allowed to cycle on the footway side too. Unless there are TROs saying otherwise, which might well be the case.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  23. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    My browser is struggling to render Edinburgh Cycle Cam and Edinburgh Cycle Training in a way that I can reliably distinguish them due to the way the text wraps.

    The whole thing with the tracks being pavement really is wildly amusing and unforeseen etc.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  24. crowriver
    Member

    "And finally on pavements, remember that on segregated cycle tracks the pedestrian side remains a footway, so if you cycle into the pedestrian side to pass a pedestrian in the cycle lane you technically commit a pavement cycling offence. There's an anomaly because cyclists have to ride on their side, but pedestrians are only advised to use theirs."

    https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/whats-legal-and-whats-not-your-bike

    Posted 6 years ago #

  25. gembo
    Member

    @crowriver. This has always been my understanding of the meadows lanes. Cyclists should stay in their lane and not go on the ped side but peds are allowed to stray over the line Smokey

    Posted 6 years ago #

  26. EdinburghCycleCam
    Member

    @crowriver - Yup: "And finally on pavements, remember that on segregated cycle tracks the pedestrian side remains a footway, so if you cycle into the pedestrian side to pass a pedestrian in the cycle lane you technically commit a pavement cycling offence" - I would assume the same applies on Leith Walk if the cycle track is shared use.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  27. Roibeard
    Member

    @gembo - in my discussions with the Council over the MMW closure, they've said that the pedestrian side is not designated as solely a footpath, the full width is a core path (and a redetermination order hasn't been made to make it a footpath).

    So, yet again, the Meadows may be different!

    Robert

    Posted 6 years ago #

  28. chdot
    Admin

    So no need/legality for “cyclist dismount” signs on MMW then!

    Posted 6 years ago #

  29. Frenchy
    Member

    So no need/legality for “cyclist dismount” signs on MMW then!

    Indeed. Council acknowledged this when the university asked if something more appropriate could be put up instead, but insisted that the dismount signs remain.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  30. Klaxon
    Member

    I actually have vague recollection now of the bus stop bypasses being RSOed as shared use

    This seems like an unnecessary legal step as pedestrians may cross the area anyway, just as they can cross a road

    You don’t designate a pedestrian crossing area of a road in a redeterminaton order

    Posted 6 years ago #

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