What do we think about this?
I'm open-minded for now, perhaps for new bikes. Could be a good thing; could be the thin end of a dodgy wedge.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Bike registration - a good thing?
(24 posts)-
Posted 6 years ago #
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I think it's probably positive, but yeah, risky if a less sympathetic government then wants to extend it with registration plates or whatever. Additionally there's a risk that you either end up with a situation where you can't sell old bikes on Gumtree, or you can just claim that any unregistered bike is 'old' or 'foreign' and it's no harder to sell stolen bikes.
Posted 6 years ago # -
A bad idea, no doubt prompted by people erroneously comparing cars and bikes. No doubt the usual suspects are writing their columns/preparing their phone-ins to demand the same in the UK
In the UK I would imagine that most bikes are worth £500 or less, similar to a laptop or iPad which are just as easy to steal. We don’t demand people register these to prevent theft; why should bikes be similar?
If insurers want bikes to be registered in some way then that is a different question, as people can choose whether or not to insure.
There are already bike registers which people can sign up to; publicise these before introducing legislation.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Must be a good idea, after all, motor vehicles have chassis and engine numbers as well as registration plates and you never hear of them being stolen do you?
Posted 6 years ago # -
Bikes aren't similar to cars but nor are they similar to laptops and iPads - I don't think I'd leave a laptop attached to a lamppost overnight? Difficulty with voluntary schemes is that it's not weird to sell a bike that isn't already registered with them, so there's no red flag when a stolen "unregistered" bike hits the market. A standardised frame numbering system might be a start but maybe that's infeasible.
AFAIK car theft is actually very low now, mainly cos it's very difficult to get into them these days but difficulty of fencing (due to VIN) must be a factor? Main reason thefts happen seems to be objects inside or joyriding - the latter is a factor in bike theft but a lot must be to sell on.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Immobilisers killed conventional car theft, these days the weakest point is breaking into a home or pickpocketing to obtain keys.
Posted 6 years ago # -
For valuable bikes, the parts including wheels may be a large part of the value. I'd guess these aren't protected by registration schemes.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Does anyone have any reckons on the etching kits for Bike register vs the sticker-only kits?
We have a couple of bikes marked with the etch, still displaying a sticker, and a couple of sticker-only which is typically what they use at bike marking events these days.
About to mark another - I assume at point of theft, the sticker is more of a deterrent as on darker frames the etch is harder to see, and they’re not methodically checking for it before nicking; that it’s possible to remove the sticker before selling on but anyone who’s not checking the frame number of a bike they’re buying is also not checking for an etched mark; and if recovered it’s the frame number they’re looking up anyway so there’s little point in the etching option?
Posted 11 hours ago # -
Had a bike marked using the sticker method by the Polis recently. The officer didn't take much care to position the stickers carefully, nor clean the frame beforehand. Both stickers were put on squint. (Would they put stickers on squint if they were doing that to someone's car???)
As a result, I tried to remove the worst offending sticker - it did come off in bits after quite a lot of work with a thumbnail and some meths.
If anyone gets this done, I'd recommend taking the stickers from the officer, and putting them on yourself.
Pretty disappointed in the whole thing really
Posted 10 hours ago # -
@bakky
Good questions
I don’t have the specific answers
More generally I have no ideas about (by implication) related questions -
Is bike theft ‘significant’ in Edinburgh (ok it’s significant to anyone it happens to)
Is it on the increase?
Is it mostly ‘opportunistic’ - badly locked, more prevalent in certain areas? Marchmont/Pollock Halls used to target areas because of high numbers of students/bikes. Now?
It also used to be said that thieves don’t bother with bikes with dropped bars. No idea if it was ever true (before expensive carbon bikes).
Undoubtedly electric bikes are now a target.
Also portable angle grinders have got a LOT cheaper!
Do the police have any useful stats?
Clearly people need to report thefts and they don’t always - esp if not insured.
I think AirTags (and cheaper alternatives) are worthwhile.
I think there should be much greater awareness of bike theft - and more done to reduce/discourage.
Research done (inc in Ed) show ‘fear of theft’ - or worse - actual theft of a bike - discourages people who want to cycle from cycling.
Posted 10 hours ago # -
if recovered it’s the frame number they’re looking up anyway so there’s little point in the etching option?
Yes and no. The frame number on its own isn't a dead cert when looking up a bike that's been recovered, but in combination with the etch and/or stickers, which leads to personal information and owner-submitted photographs, it can go a long way to helping identify the legitimate owner. Every etch and every pair of QR code stickers is coded uniquely. The Police are very familiar with security stickers and UV-fluorescent markings.
The etch is better on dark paint, and almost invisible on dark metallic paint. It's also contraindicated for bikes that aren't painted or lacquered, say, raw titanium or aluminium or plain carbon, for which QR stickers are preferred. There are marking compounds for materials other than paint, though.
IMO, the best reason to register a bike is so that (in theory) no-one else can. It would be possible to find a locked, ostensibly unstickered bike you fancy stealing, register it to yourself (supposing you have a ready stock of sticker kits...) and then 'prove' to the authorities that it's your bike. Unless a miracle occurs and the legitimate owner is identified and possesses other evidence such as a receipt or log book or (more likely) a raft of earlier photos.
I've personally marked hundreds of bikes at work during events, and I've always taken great care to clean the frame and get the stickers and etches in the correct place. Unnecessarily hasty work by the Police, neddie.
I like the utility of AirTags but I dislike the fact that they may be misused.
Posted 10 hours ago # -
“but I dislike the fact that they may be misused.“
Presume you mean not with (own) bikes/objects?
Posted 10 hours ago # -
Since thieves now find it hard to steal cars, without first stealing the keys, organised crime have now turned to e-bikes and other high-end bikes. Bikes which often have a similar value to a second-hand car and are easier to break down into parts etc.
Polis officer told me recently that crime gangs are now running "county lines" type operations, but for e-bikes. Basically, they will pay a vulnerable youth to steal a bike - going rate is about £80 for a bike.
Obviously there's still also opportunistic theft of lower value bikes too, but I'm guessing that's carried out by rogue individuals, rather than organised crime.
Posted 9 hours ago # -
Regarding Airtags;
I've admired that inherent in the ecosystem design for Airtags, they've considered the possibility for misuse, in that if someone else's Airtag appears to be travelling with you, you'll be alerted to that fact via notification (at least, on an iPhone; they could do with a partnership to get that into Android also).
This also makes them, in my opinion, a far worse anti-theft device for the likes of a bike, because any thief with an iPhone is going to see there's one hidden on the bike. We've still opted for one on some bikes, but I wouldn't expect it to be much use other than potentially getting lucky if noticing straight away and wishing to follow.
I'm leaning towards using the etch again, it's not too much faff and if it increases the likelihood of the police matching it up with our Bike Register account - even on darker paint - it's worth the £7 difference between the kits.
In terms of thefts, via the various community groups I belong to across social platforms I see mention of balaclava dunces lifting bikes at least a couple of times a week, typically in the city centre groups and most recently very active in Newington. There have also been a lot of thefts from garages in our area. As @Neddie identified these are typically kids who are unidentifiable thanks to face masks, from vulnerable backgrounds and too young to get a serious prosecution out of it. We choose more expensive locks so have good peace of mind generally, but I'm also very belt-and-braces and would rather have it easier to recover for the minor work and admin involved.
Posted 9 hours ago # -
Random Google search, covers various things.
Posted 9 hours ago # -
That appears to be a fairly comprehensive guide, but it's fascinating to me that they've managed to write about using it as a security device and completely omit the fact it will tell someone there's an Airtag travelling with them if stolen, which is a massive downside!
Posted 8 hours ago # -
“This also makes them, in my opinion, a far worse anti-theft device for the likes of a bike, because any thief with an iPhone is going to see there's one hidden on the bike”
Not sure about that.
The ‘do you know there is AirTag with you’ message - on a cyclist travelling with you or hidden on you/in your bag - doesn’t alert you instantly (ie when you happen on one in the street somewhere).
Don’t know how long it takes to ‘register’ there is something ‘suspicious’, but it must be a few minutes.
And probably only works when both Tags are actually moving(?)
Posted 8 hours ago # -
It's based on a change in geolocation - so if you're carrying an iPhone, the intermittent ping to see nearby Airtags will catch it with you as your location changes (as tracked by the iPhone's GPS). From my own experience e.g. carrying my wife's keys with me, it's generally been within a half hour.
They're about cheap enough to make it worthwhile anyway, but the GPS tracker with backup battery embedded in my ebike's motor is a far more serious bit of anti-theft measure by comparison - using an Airtag as an alternative comes up frequently in owners & riders group discussions. Not really very practical outside of ebike land though.
Posted 8 hours ago # -
“From my own experience e.g. carrying my wife's keys with me, it's generally been within a half hour.“
That makes sense, so no would-be thief is gonna hang around that long.
“Not really very practical outside of ebike land though.” You mean because there aren’t so many hiding places?
Posted 8 hours ago # -
A mix of factors. Absolute faff to get into the motor in the first place which buys tracking time (and no outward sign it’s present); backup battery recharges from ebike battery when in use, but would otherwise need a separate power source or frequent recharges, etc. And I would expect that GPS signal wouldn’t be as useful if the tracker was inside the frame, so would need to be sited somewhere both less likely to be detected but still not in metal tubing. Have seen some cheaper options masquerading as rear lights, but those are a bit easy to ditch to my mind.
Posted 5 hours ago # -
Yes
Inside metal likely to compromise usefulness.
There are always places that are not entirely ‘obvious’
The non Apple ones are cheap enough to consider having two!
Only direct experience I have of a stolen (tagged) bike was one that had the lock removed with an angle grinder.
Bike was left relatively close by.
Whether abandoned, (for whatever reason - including the possibility that the thief became aware that there was a tag that couldn’t be quickly removed), or left for later pickup will never be known.
Owner still using bike, tag still on first battery.
Batteries supposed to last a year but I had one that didn’t last half that.
Posted 5 hours ago # -
@neddie Did said polis officer give any indication that bike theft now being orchestrated by actual genuine organised crime gangs might perhaps persuade a few of their colleagues to put down their Greggs yum-yums and maybe actually investigate them once in a while?
Posted 3 hours ago # -
Just a reminder, my bold
“
Register your bikes today
Join for free and enjoy the following benefits:
Lifetime registration on the BikeRegister database, the UK's largest dedicated bicycle database with more than 1 million bikes registered
Manage all your bikes in one secure place
Transfer ownership of your bike
A registration Logbook for proof of ownership
Security upgrade options for protecting your bike
“
Posted 2 hours ago # -
Yodhrin sadly not. The polis was of the attitude that we should try to hunt down the targeted youths, instead of them actually going after the source of the problem ie crime gangs
Posted 2 hours ago #
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