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Poor quality childrens' bikes on sale

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  1. wingpig
    Member

    Eurgh. I was meaning more that what you're asserting as "there is a clear difference between" is more likely to mean "it's almost impossible to find children unaffected by the society in which they live in order to assess their 'innate' parameters before they've been swamped by societal signals".

    There's a programme on the iPlayer at the moment which is trying to demonstrate this sort of stuff - it's a bit large-print and generalising and I was only half-watching it, but they did manage to reiterate that you can still find preconceptions even in children barely old enough to be meaningfully evaluated. I'll have a poke and fish out the name.

    Still trying to think of an equitable society (without cheating by resorting to prokaryotes). There are plenty of examples of distribution-of-tasks-by-physical/behavioural-traits but you can't use them as the physical or behavioural traits have arisen due to societal inequalities.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  2. Arellcat
    Moderator

    I'm not entirely sure what we're actually debating. But for what it's worth:

    Ok, would it please you more if I said:
    "Both sexes are better at things, that is not to say one is more equal than the other, just that in an equitable society, tasks are (mostly) shared out based on competence, like it or not."

    It would be better to de-gender and de-sex the statement by saying "Some people are better at things". Neither sex nor gender, nor gender identity, are binary in the real world, although the normal distributions thereof are. Gender identity is innate and is usually conflated with social gender, and indeed both biological and outward sex, because for most people the terms are effectively the same and interchangeable.

    Children develop their colour preference because other children develop theirs and because parents usually encourage it; and parents usually encourage it because the market is so strongly tied to its perpetuation that they are blind to the effort that the alternative requires.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  3. Baldcyclist
    Member

    I'll relate to personal experience again.

    My line manager, senior manager, and director level are all female, and they are all competent.

    I went for a job a while ago - the line managers job - for which I have the experience, knowledge, and skill set to do, in fact I'd done it for a year acting, mostly well, but I didn't get it.

    I remember being furious at the time, to put it mildly I thought I'd been 'humped', I should have got it right, I was the incumbent doing the job well, being mostly competent

    It took me a while, and a lot of resentment later to realise why I never got that job. I simply hadn't put the time in, and it was as simple as that. As I stated, unless there was a crisis, come 5pm I was gone. I never made any sacrifice, and looking back on it I'm completely fine that I didn't put the work in. How many days/months with the boy would I have lost, and be continue'ing to be losing now had I got that job? Subconsciously I'd already made my choice.

    A contrasting example when I was younger, and changing career. I was hungry and wanted to progress, and so I did the 10 hour days every day, and then working at home til 10pm. I did well, was competitive, and didn't care what anyone else was doing. If I did 10 hours I could do more than them.

    The truth is, when people put in that sacrifice they succeed regardless of circumstance. Few people (of either gender) are willing to fully commit - as I didn't for that last job, and that is why they don't make it to promoted positions.

    Now regarding circumstance, I come from what was regarded one of the poorest areas in Livingston and never went to University. By any measure of circumstance I shouldn't be where I am. To societal inequalities I say, sure they exist, and I know my fair share of drug addicts, even dabbled myself for a while in my 20s. But if you say f*ck that, nobody owes me anything, and start crawling, you will succeed.

    I'm going to slip away for a while now, I'll continue to lurk. Though sometimes I can't help myself when the lefties start with all their oppression nonsense. ;)

    Posted 5 years ago #

  4. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Ladies' Home Journal article in June 1918 said, "The generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.

    "

    https://jezebel.com/5790638/the-history-of-pink-for-girls-blue-for-boys

    Posted 5 years ago #

  5. wingpig
    Member

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bt7v16/babies-their-wonderful-world-series-1-1-becoming-you

    Worth a look; hopefully it'll lead a few viewers to watch what they're putting in to the generations beneath, in case it comes back out to subsequent generations when society has hopefully moved on even more.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  6. Morningsider
    Member

    I genuinely love seeing how other people think. I don't really have anything to add on the gender stuff, as its not really something I've put much thought into. However, the idea of defining "success" at work as putting in long hours and never seeing your family seems mad to me.

    For me, success is doing something I find interesting, with people I respect, for reasonable hours and with decent pay.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  7. Snowy
    Member

    Are we still talking about bikes?

    Posted 5 years ago #

  8. sallyhinch
    Member

    After four pages of replies, if any CCE thread is still on topic, then something's gone seriously wrong.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  9. cb
    Member

    It was said upthread, and I've heard it many times before, that boys used to be dressed in pink and girls in blue.

    But perhaps it was never clear cut as that. That Jezebel article certainly cites a couple of early/earlyish 20th century sources but then states:

    "In the 1940s manufacturers settled on pink for girls and blue for boys"

    I can't really imagine that being possible if ideas were previously quite entrenched in the opposite direction.

    Both our boys have been quite in favour of pink at certain times. In fact we've just had to steer the three year old away from the idea of asking for a certain type of toy from Santa in pink - but that's only from the practical point of view that it can't be found in pink (and unfortunately, "but Santa's elves can just make it", is no help in the real world).

    Posted 5 years ago #

  10. fimm
    Member

    @sallyhinch this one has got to 70 pages and still is, unfortunately...
    Sorry.

    On the topic of this thread, I'm glad I don't work at baldcyclists' place of work...

    Some of us rebel against our gender norms in different ways depending on who we are and what is expected of us. The reason I have GCSE physics and not GCSE biology is that I kept hearing reports on how bad it was that girls were not studying physics, so I went "all right, I'll not do biology" (I didn't want to do both). And yet in some ways I'm quite "feminine" in that some of the time I'm nicly turned out, I wear skirts and jewellry - but on the other hand I'm happy to do something because I want to do it and I don't care how many other women are doing it.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  11. Rosie
    Member

    "Boy and girl. Aren't they beauties?" said the proud papa, beaming upon the little, red squirmers as if they were unfledged angels.

    "Most remarkable children I ever saw. Which is which?" and Laurie bent like a well-sweep to examine the prodigies.

    "Amy put a blue ribbon on the boy and a pink on the girl, French fashion, so you can always tell. Besides, one has blue eyes and one brown. Kiss them, Uncle Teddy," said wicked Jo.

    Good Wives, Louise M Alcott, published 1869

    Posted 5 years ago #

  12. Baldcyclist
    Member

    "On the topic of this thread, I'm glad I don't work at baldcyclists' place of work..."

    Don't worry, I'm not going to dive back in (I might not be able to help it ;)), other than to say my work has done more than most places to try and promote gender neutrality. I mentioned before my line manager, department head, and director are all female. Also tech industry, and a lot of female leaders throughout the org...

    They all work incredibly hard, stay at work to ridiculous times, and email each other throughout the night. As do senior male colleagues.

    I had one female colleague who on finishing the aurora leadership programme was disappointed it was expected that you would sacrifice your free time in order to become a leader. She, although capable, has decided that's not for her, as did I for similar reasons.

    I don't dispute anyones right to pursue leadership roles in their chosen career path, and wish them the best, I simply contend the reason for (able) people not becoming leaders is less about gender, and more about willingness to sacrifice time. I don't believe half of the population is being oppressed because of their gender, sorry.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  13. fimm
    Member

    Oppression might be a little wider than whether someone gets promotion at work or not...

    Posted 5 years ago #

  14. Baldcyclist
    Member

    The call for equality is usually always about the perceived glass ceiling. It's never about more male nurses, or female plumbers., hence the focus on leadership

    I believe everyone should do what they wish to do, and that they have the opportunity to do so. The world owes us nothing, we owe ourselves and our loved ones everything.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  15. unhurt
    Member

    I don't believe half of the population is being oppressed because of their gender, sorry.

    Oh, well then. If Baldcylist doesn't believe it it can't be true.

    Time to pack it in ladies - there's no workplace inequality to see here. All a dream. A weirdly economically and socially effective dream, to be sure, widely studied and with a rather extensive evidence base, but nothing that can't be resolved by the firm conviction of someone not affected by it that it doesn't exist.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  16. Baldcyclist
    Member

    OK then, help me understand, what oppression have you faced, how have you been stopped from achieving your goals in life?

    Posted 5 years ago #

  17. Trixie
    Member

    In which someone mansplains that gender inequality isn't a thing cos they've not experienced it.

    Really?!

    Posted 5 years ago #

  18. unhurt
    Member

    @Trixie I KNOW! It's sort of textbook. I might link to this thread as a useful example in future.

    I especially love the demand that I share my personal experiences (so that he can dismiss them). Let me think about that for a--- nope. (It's not like there's reams of information / studies / discussion about this available via the internet. No, I must "help him understand" - a strange request from someone who believes in the supremacy of personal effort).

    Posted 5 years ago #

  19. SRD
    Moderator

    "It's never about more male nurses, or female plumbers., hence the focus on leadership"

    Ummm. you must be reading different things to me. Male staff at nurseries and primary school (not just the HT or PE) is a particular concern.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  20. Baldcyclist
    Member

    I'm not demanding anything. I've been quite open with my experiences - whether or not people agree with them, or choose to deride them. It's ok if you have no examples to share, I want to get a sense of the struggles that people experience.

    Re male/female dominance in certain sectors, it has been said that men like things, and women like people. I don't know if that goes any way to explain it.

    The other question is to what extent we mandate 50/50 in everything, or just agree that everyone agrees everybody should have equal opportunity.

    Do we mandate, 50% male nurses, if so do we mandate for religion, colour or anything else? How do we ensure total equity?

    Posted 5 years ago #

  21. Trixie
    Member

    "It's ok if you have no examples to share, I want to get a sense of the struggles that people experience."

    Choosing not to share one's personal business in an open forum online is not quite the same as having no examples to share.

    And with that I'm out cos i really don't believe you're not trolling at this point.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  22. wingpig
    Member

    "Re male/female dominance in certain sectors, it has been said that men like things, and women like people. I don't know if that goes any way to explain it."

    It may have been said, but by no means universally agreed or accepted.

    One of my goals is to go 24 hours without being oppressed by the feeling that we will never truly be rid of the mistaken attitudes and behaviours of the past. Yet to be achieved.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  23. acsimpson
    Member

    "In the 1940s manufacturers settled on pink for girls and blue for boys"

    So the reasons are pretty much the same as the reasons that bike are given such poor treatment on our roads. The Capitalists decided it and pushed it so effectively that the consumers just rolled over and accepted it.

    From a purely practical point of view I would like to buy my son clothes which both he and his younger sister would be happy wearing. However the shops don't seem to offer very much in that way. It's possible that it wouldn't sell but it is also in companies financial interest to stop it selling.

    I'm pleased to say that the clothes of his which she chooses to wear are mostly the ones with bikes on them.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  24. gembo
    Member

    @rosie, yeah 1869 and like @ baldycyclist's, man , two genders, boy and girl THT is one massive prehistoric binary troll. Gender, it is like fluid man in the 21st century. Like totally non-binary

    Posted 5 years ago #

  25. minus six
    Member

    @baldcyclist

    The truth is, when people put in that sacrifice they succeed regardless of circumstance

    nah, we don't live in a meritocracy

    i expect your bosses spend a lot of time grooming each other on twitter, round the clock, seven days a week

    you aren't big on twitter. you don't have a clearly defined corporate profile. that's all there is to it

    Posted 5 years ago #

  26. Baldcyclist
    Member

    "you aren't big on twitter. you don't have a clearly defined corporate profile. that's all there is to it"

    Lol, Twitter has never been about work for me, hence the psudenum, and non descriptive profile. Unfortunately they found me none the less. I don't spend much time there now, mostly as a result of being found. It's a shame, I used to quite like Twitter, people there helped me stop smoking, and weirdly have been more supportive at times of adversity in my life than actual real life friends.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  27. minus six
    Member

    I don't spend much time there now, mostly as a result of being found

    ah, but you haven't been found

    corporate twitter colonies find pseudonyms untrustworthy as they can't control it, and they remain desperate to control and shape narrative

    yet your workplace identity is no more 'real' than your cycle forum identity

    as the mullah said... "you're nothing but of pack of cards"

    Posted 5 years ago #

  28. Baldcyclist
    Member

    "corporate"

    Surprisingly not, I've never worked in the private sector. Despite being (comparatively) well off, I've never sought it, it just kind of found me. I've always sought responsibility, never money, and as such public service has always seemed more appropriate to me than private enterprise. I can't see myself ever being allured by the extra £20k a private sector salary would bring.

    I'll not preach on that to the hive, everyone needs to make a living as best they can within their conscience.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  29. chdot
    Admin

    https://www.weforum.org/reports/the-global-gender-gap-report-2018

    Posted 5 years ago #

  30. crowriver
    Member

    Whoa! This thread suddenly exploded into a veritable culture war.

    Speaking of which, what about that aero/non-aero thing of which IWRATS was speaking?

    (Personally I self-identify as non-aero).

    Posted 5 years ago #

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