@MediumDave, yes, both that and the carrying of two sets of Conditions of Carriage suggest there is much more to this than is detailed in the article
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Electric scooters
(184 posts)-
Posted 2 years ago #
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The National Rail "Luggage and animals" guidance states:
Articles, Luggage and Animals Not Permitted on National Rail
...Motorcycles, mopeds, motor scooters and motorised cycles (excluding e-Scooters).
Seems pretty clear, e-scooters are not considered "motor scooters" by the rail industry and are not specifically banned from being carried as luggage.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Good spot Morningsider, that's not in the written CoC.
Quite a lot of inconsistencies between that webpage and the PDF version. Webpage says "Articles exceeding one metre in any dimension that cannot be carried by the passenger concerned. This includes canoes, hang-gliders, surfboards, large furniture and any large musical instrument that cannot be carried without assistance." are not permitted while the PDF says pretty much all those are only permitted at the discretion of individual Train Companies (I can't imagine too many TOCs welcome them, mind).
Posted 2 years ago # -
Rather seems to confirm the train driver overstepped his evidently-relished authority, given despite "advising against" taking one aboard it clearly states you can provided it remains folded and stowed.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Met an e-scooter salmoning in the Forrest Rd bike lane this morning. We both had to stop as there were queued cars in the traffic lane and e-scooter rider was glaikit. I was... displeased.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Am I the only one who's gears get a bit grindy over stuff like that? "The rental ones have safety features the private sale ones don't" - putting aside that that isn't universally true, to the extent it is true it's because YOU refuse to legalise and regulate the private ones, while simultaneously YOU refuse to ban their sale. It also, again, isn't an issue unique to e-scooters, literally any electronic device with a battery that isn't produced to the right standards can combust, will they ban ebikes built using conversion kits? Laptops with aftermarket batteries? Phones that have had their original batteries replaced? Powerbanks? Powered skateboards/one-wheels?
I don't even *like* e-scooters, I just get really irritated by hypocrisy and double-standards.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Yeah I think it's a bit like my knee-jerk response to press discourse around pavement cycling. Yes, it can be annoying, yes, it can be dangerous, no, it isn't the greatest threat facing mankind - haven't you seen those big heavy metal things flying around?!
Posted 2 years ago # -
and often driven and left on the pavement!
Posted 2 years ago # -
When the police say that you can only use e-scooters on private land does that mean roads/footpaths not adopted by the council?
Posted 2 years ago # -
@boothym - Road traffic law applies to private roads, as well as adopted roads. It has to be this way to avoid a massive loophole in the law, exempting private roads would mean you could speed or drive drunk on a private road with no threat of prosecution. This means you can't legally use an e-scooter on a private road. You can use them on "roads" entirely within a private estate (not technically roads) with the permission of the landowner, access rights do not apply as an e-scooter is motorised.
Section 34 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 makes it an offence to use a mechanically propelled vehicle away from a road - including on a footpath or bridleway, subject to a number of exemptions (e-bikes are allowed).
Posted 2 years ago # -
Thanks, I thought as much but just wondered in case there was a loophole there, as obviously only being able to use them on actual private roads makes them basically illegal almost everywhere (despite their popularity rising).
Posted 2 years ago # -
I think it's a bit more subtle than that, as this article on drink driving explains.
It sounds like it's about access rather than ownership. So if you get drunk and hop into your car parked on the unadopted but otherwise public road outside your house, the police can nab you immediately, but if your car is actually parked at the end of a long, paved estate road protected by a closed gate and a NO PUBLIC ACCESS sign, you're probably in the clear until you get past the gate and onto the public road on the other side.
If you e-scoot on non-public roads without the permission of the landowner, I don't know if you're committing some kind of road traffic offence or some kind of trespass offence. If it's the latter the punishments might be less severe.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Welp, as I worried, this anti-battery mania is beginning to spread to ebikes: https://twitter.com/CalSleeper/status/1485990558275416075
Of course, the hypocritical <rule 2>'s aren't saying anything about banning mobility scooters or electric wheelchairs(because they'd be hauled up under the Equalities Act within moments) or any other battery-powered devices(because they know fine well banning laptops and phones would mean fiscal suicide), but a few annoyed bicyclists? Who cares eh.
Posted 2 years ago # -
@yodhrin - big stushie on twitter. Battery hire opportunity for Caley Sleeper.
On threat of E scooters. Usually relaxed but one went along Dundee St on outside of bollards then far too close to slower moving bikes. One bike was Tern with child on board. I was on e-bakfiets at around 15mph. Reckon scooter was above 20. Segway hi-performance model with no limiter.
Long line of fossil traffic including a Porsche.Posted 2 years ago # -
Definitely seeing more about.
NEPN at speeds above 15mph
Getting put on trains by people who are using them as transport, not just ‘fun’.
Posted 2 years ago # -
As e-scooters are solely controlled by a throttle they are electric mopeds per Class P or Q driving licence conditions
If they only provide inertial assistance to manual scooting they would be equivalent to EAPC
For hired e-scooters to operate in Scotland there would need to be compliance with Section 97 Roads Scotland Act 1984, as they are classed as street trading. This is why Scotland never had the MoBike/OfO debacles
Posted 2 years ago # -
“
This presents a real opportunity for Scotland as it seeks to reach net-zero emissions by 2045 and to cut the distance travelled by private cars by 20 per cent by the end of this decade.
This would include defining e-scooters to a high standard of safety as well as building in future capacity for the UK to avail itself of innovative new micromobility options on two and more wheels.
“
Posted 2 years ago # -
I saw an electric scooter on Calder Rd at about 6.20pm last night. I was eastbound and taking the 3rd exit down to Wester Hailes/Odeon and the westbound traffic stopped except for an electric scooter rider who just went in between the cars. They had plenty of time so no risk of crashing with me but I thought them being on a dual carriageway was brave/stupid.
I am hoping that "the bloody cyclists" with be replaced with "the bloody scooterists*" one day.
*Or whatever form is correct
Posted 2 years ago # -
We're just back from a two week holiday in Portugal: first week in Porto, second in Lisbon. Both cities have electric scooter and e-bike rental schemes. FWIW, both cities also have more, and steeper, hills than Edinburgh, as well as a higher proportion of cobbled streets.
The rental e-bikes didn't seem particularly popular. Indeed, a significant proportion of the small number of rental e-bike users in Lisbon seemed to be food delivery couriers (Glovo: their equivalent of Deliveroo/Uber Eats). This struck me as odd since, if there's no bike available in your local dock then your delivery is likely to be late and, I assume, the customer gets some kind of discount - though I may be mistaken on that point. (A lot of the other food delivery couriers were riding clearly non-EAPC-compliant e-bikes with throttles and requiring no pedalling.)
The rental e-scooters were significantly more popular in Lisbon than in Porto. In both cities, though, they seemed to get dumped in random, and often obstructive places, when finished with. All the rental e-scooters carried clear, though optimistic and in practice futile exhortations that they were not to be ridden on pavements. In practice they were ridden everywhere: on pavements, in parks and (sigh) when ridden on the road, through red lights. One e-scooterist missed me by inches as I was wandering across a path in the Jardim da Estrela, a quiet park regularly patronised by supervised groups of kids from the local primary school, and not the sort of place one would reasonably expect to have to beware of silent motor vehicles being driven inconsiderately fast and with no warning being given of their approach. And on the morning of our departure we encountered a 'dude' using his e-scooter to get around our local Metro station, taking full advantage of the ramps and lifts provided for wheelchair users, riding one-handed while tapping away on his phone with the other hand, and having a conversation on said phone at the same time. Probably thought he was a master of millennial multitasking but I'm afraid I though his behaviour inconsiderate and not a little unsafe.
I'm not opposed to e-scooters as a concept, but if our recent experience of involuntarily having to share pavements, parks and other non-road spaces with them is anything to go by then it looks like some kind of fairly clear regulation and (dare I say it) enforcement of their use is going to be needed to avoid what bill hopes for coming to pass.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Was in Bristol (briefly) last weekend - their fleet of electric scooters seemed very popular with the younger citizens, and I didn't notice excessive pavement riding. Didn't get a close look, but they seemed to be quite fancy... front suspension and indicators built-in to the handler bars.
TBH I can understand why scooters would be more popular than e-bikes - zero physical effort, can just leave them anywhere and, no doubt, they are 1000% cooler than your typical rental e-bike (way too cool me).
Posted 2 years ago # -
“
While e-scooters are being used in about 30 trials across England, police warn they will impound privately owned e-scooters on public roads. Riders have been told by police that their confiscated vehicles have been crushed, chopped up by electric saws or placed in long-term storage.
“
Posted 1 year ago # -
riding one-handed while tapping away on his phone with the other hand, and having a conversation on said phone at the same time
ISTR teenagers and 20-somethings in Italy riding mopeds and Vespas in much the same way: socially, conveniently, not-needing-a-car-ingly. Because if it's too far to walk and you don't want to cycle a bike, and you want to take your bf/gf/nbf etc. they can just hop onboard in their flipflops and perhaps an open face helmet.
On the other hand I've been surprised more than once by the silent and rather rapid approach from behind of e-scooter riders on the Roslin-Loanhead path. I can cycle at more than 15mph there, but I usually don't; an e-scooter will zip along all day* at that speed**.
However we look at it, they're probably an inevitability: the marriage of decent battery and motor technology with a minimalist wheeled platform with just enough handling to go on the road, kind of like the Sinclair A-bike but actually halfway sensible***. The next step will probably be the e-cargo scooter. Germany and Netherlands had manual cargo scooters 25 years ago. Emily Velasco in LA for instance fitted her e-scooter with a luggage crate and proper headlamps, although she usually rides a bike. For all that we worry about e-scooter riders turning into Mods vs Rockers, we cannot avoid the fact that cars are still the primary hazard.
* may as well be
** regs to limit e-scooters to 10mph might be helpful - but again takes away their functionality because we won't control the source of the harm.
*** this is not:Posted 1 year ago # -
“we cannot avoid the fact that cars are still the primary hazard”
Well
That “we” is “WE”
I’m sure everyone on here understands that
But in the ‘real world’ - even the Twitter version of that - there are shocking numbers of people who really believe cars ‘deserve’ their current privileged status.
And therefore anyone in the way, literally or figuratively (eg ‘campaigners’), is a threat to that ‘normality’ and therefore THEM.
Re electric scooters, my thoughts are not fixed.
Primarily they are another consumer item to be manufactured, marketed and sold.
The people in that chain barely care if they get used.
To a degree there will be plans for new models and therefore a need to fix the legals.
BUT
To what extent are they a ‘valid’ transport option.
I was underwhelmed by the initial (non-powered) scooter craze.
But seeing my grandchildren use them as a genuine alternative to walking for shortish distances, I appreciate that validity.
I could imagine 2 or 3 children going to school with an adult also on a scooter.
But in reality that’s rare.
So the school run by motor endures even for absurdly short distances.
But the electric versions tend to be more than a toy with a motor.
Again how much they do/could replace cars - on some journeys - is a big unknown.
The complaints about ‘sneaking up silently’ is valid - but far more prevalent by bikes in the view of pedestrians…
Which of course brings in all the issues about how things are used and ‘human nature’
In an ideal world cyclists, drivers and scooter users (and pedestrians) would abide by ‘the rules’ - legal and ‘societal expectations’ (whatever they happen to be day to day).
IF scooters are heavily regulated - or even continue to be banned - it will be highly ironic.
The status (motoring) quo will have won.
The problems would remain - too many cars and not enough provision for/promotion of a range of alternative/complementary TRANSPORT options.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I dunno. I know I shouldn't get grumpy over them, just another option in the mix etc, but whether I put on my environmentalist hat or my war on cars hat I can't find the positive.
Do we know they're actually reducing car trips? They seem like they're more of an alternative to something like a Brompton or a traditional moped/vespa-style scooter than a car, give how most car drivers tend to see transportation(ie, they want their big comfy safe warm quiet(inside) box to sit inside and get angry over everyone else doing likewise). I also struggle to justify the cost of resource extraction and ewaste they'll generate - electric bikes also generate that extra cost & waste over a traditional bicycle, but they make up for it by enabling more people to engage in *active* travel, which brings public and individual health benefits.
I suppose at this point there's really no stopping them, there's an "industry" now which means marketing creating trends and plenty of people will love the idea of a "lazy Brompton". But I do think they need to be at least as heavily regulated as ebikes - max motor power and speed should be in line with EAPC, frankly maybe even not quite as much oomph so there's still an incentive for people to choose the bike over the scooter. All this "we can sell ludicrous-speed ungoverned scooters so long as we pretend you're only going to ride them inside private estates" bollocks, those need to be limited sale only to people with a moped license and only for road use.
Posted 1 year ago #
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