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cycle.travel - is it any good?

(10 posts)
  • Started 4 years ago by Greenroofer
  • Latest reply from Greenroofer

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  1. Greenroofer
    Member

    I've grumbled gently about cycle.travel on another thread, and @chrisfl seemed interested so it seemed wise to move my observations into a new thread of its own.

    I should start by saying that cycle.travel is my route-finding website of choice. I find it particularly good for plotting long routes, as it's the best I've found at knitting together NCN routes. It's also good for plotting short routes in town: it generally comes up with the route I'd pick, and on that basis I recommend it to others. I recognise that it's free, and that it works (most of the time).

    However, it has let me down a couple of times recently, by making slightly perverse routing choices. Sometimes I suspect that's because the basemap is wrong. Sometimes I suspect it's the way it does routing.

    Here's an example of both at once. See how the route diverges from the A701: cycle.travel does this quite a lot, it seems terrified of major roads, even when it's "obvious" that if you're on the A701 at the start and end you might as well stay on it. However the second problem with the diversion off the A701 here is that it goes up what is clearly a private drive, and then through two farmyards.

    Similarly near Coldstream it's routed me through the private grounds of an estate, rather than follow the NCN around the edge.

    ...and near Longtown it routed me along an old railway on NCN7 that was muddy single track despite me choosing 'sealed only' as a routing option.

    I still reckon it's a good tool, and I prefer it to Strava or Garmin Connect for long distances, but it can be a bit dense sometimes.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  2. Ed1
    Member

    I am not sure what part of the route through the estate in Coldstream would be an issue.

    The "private drive" in West Linton is less clear. Its overly fussy maintained that creates the impression that is private. However its the natural curtilage of a properly that matters more, I cant see from the Ariel view if that is one large properly which natural curettage would be great or if several cottages in which case it almost certainly would not. Even if bought and joined to one. I think going through farm yards is generally OK.

    To get exclusive access which is basically claim a private garden it is something like the natural curtilage Unless a mansion house unlikely to be more than a couple of aches if that.

    I had the owner of a private estate in the borders complain about me using their estates drive to run in, it also linked to another path. The outdoor access officer agreed with me that there was access he even suggested i put it forward as a suggested core path. If the outdoor access officer opinion is access is permitted, its much less likely the land owner would be successful in getting an interdict to stop access.

    If traditional farmers or landowners they are unlikely to take issue. Its possibly where a yuppie has moved in. A yuppie buys a farm and then thinks the fields their private garden in the same way as the 10 square meters may be in a town. It is a certain irony that people think land reform is going to increase access, it may well just break up estates with problematic yuppies taking over that dont understand customs, practices and the law.

    That west Linton looks like the sort of place a problematic person may live. The overly fussy drive that does not fit in well would make my spider sense tingle. It has that lotto winner, rich banker vibe, it looks pretentious out of character for a drive to a few cottages. West Linton has lots of rich townies getting fat in the city, in context to avoid complications may have doubts about that route. This does not mean its not necessarily legal it may be.

    "you can also exercise
    access rights along driveways, except where the ground
    becomes a garden, and pass by gatehouses and other
    buildings." 3.16

    https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/sites/default/files/2018-05/Publication%202005%20-%20Scottish%20Outdoor%20Access%20Code.pdf

    I generally find cycle travel good but only really used google before which has some major failings, so often check routes on cycle travel if have no knowledge of an area.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  3. How does it compare to Komoot? That's the one I use and find it awesome!

    Posted 4 years ago #
  4. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I think going through farm yards is generally OK.

    It specifically is not OK.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  5. cb
    Member

    According to OSM the first bit of that detour (to the farm) at Blyth Bridge doesn't have a surface specified, but the rest is marked as 'concrete'. The whole detour has Allowed Access: bicycles = yes.

    So maybe makes sense to route that way.

    On the other hand the farm is marked as 'farmyard' and the route does go through it so maybe the routing could take that into account?

    Posted 4 years ago #
  6. cb
    Member

    For the Longtown cycle path there is no surface specified; however:

    https://cycle.travel/about/maps
    "If there’s no surface tag, we broadly assume cycleways are tarmac, tracks are gravel, and bridleways are dirt (though with a few local adjustments)."

    Posted 4 years ago #
  7. neddie
    Member

    From my limited experience, it seems that cycle.travel weights more heavily in favour off-road and segregated paths than Komoot does (even when set to "bike" touring mode)

    cycle.travel is still my "go to" for routing. But I might give Komoot a shot too. Ultimately, it's best to try a few tools.

    Google Maps is my "go to" for driving since is really knows what's happening traffic-wise. Avoid Google Maps for cycle routing as it is absolutely useless (doesn't know about many cut-throughs)

    Posted 4 years ago #
  8. chrisfl
    Member

    @greenroofer, thanks for feedback.

    I ping'd RichardF about this on OSM irc:


    1111 @RichardF ╡ chrisfl: yes, most of those are tagging issues. The A701 one is interesting because it's basically an artefact of the routing algorithm (Contraction Hierarchies) - the route choices don't have any awareness of what you've been doing earlier in the route.
    ╡ In other words, it can't know that you were on the A701, and have gone back to the A701, so might as well stay on the A701.
    1113 ⤷ ╡ cycle.travel tries to ameliorate that a bit by adding turn penalties to/from major roads, which discourages "weaving". Conversely someone pointed me at https://cycle.travel/map/journey/110904 the other day where (without the via point) it chooses to stay
    ╡ on the road, rather than take the short cycleway, for that reason!
    1114 ⤷ ╡ I don't have a CCE account but do feel free to c&p the above if it's helpful :)

    The good news is that these are mostly tagging problems in OSM, which are good to fix.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  9. Ed1
    Member

    "I think going through farm yards is generally OK.

    It specifically is not OK."

    Oh yes I see farmyards need to have a core path, right of way or a if access has been taken on a customary basis.

    “Although access rights do not extend to farmyards, many people take access through farmyards when following paths and tracks. In practice: • if a right of way or core path goes through a farmyard, you can follow this at any time; • if a reasonable, passable alternative route is signposted around the farmyard and buildings, then you should follow this. In the absence of a right of way, core path or reasonable, signposted route around the farmyard and buildings, you: • might be able to go through the farmyard if the farmer is content or if access has been taken on a customary basis in the past; or you • could exercise your access rights to go around the farmyard and buildings. If you do go through a farmyard, proceed safely and carefully, watch out for machinery or livestock, and respect the privacy of those living on the farm.

    PAGE 86”

    ----------

    the excuses section:

    This seems a bit of a duff part of the access code, as farmyards often link to paths, and historically would often be on a route so may be customary to go through many farmyards, some are even on roads. Prior to the access code access may have been better access in this respect. The code was more for clarity, it’s not that there was no access before, in this case think the guidance may led to further confusion and be used as supporting “evidence” against access . Farms yards are often on routes so would think should not specifically exclude farm yards in the guidance, doing so may slant judges view rather than looking at custom and practice as would have been consider prior to the access code.
    I would guess many farmyards will be part of a historic or customary route through many of which are not core paths or right of ways.

    It may have been better if the access code said many farmyards have access if part of customary historic route and been used to access other paths or permitted areas if not then may be no permitted access. This guidance as it is in a sense has the effect of changing the law in this respect, when was meant to be used to help interpretation to aid clarity of existing law, the code not being the law its self.

    Although it may be few established farmers who inherited farm or tenancy would take issue with someone walking through farmyard if been done for many years. If ownership changes may have the effect of restricting access with this slightly duff part of the guidance bias judges decisions. The onus, weighting and context seems slightly out.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  10. Greenroofer
    Member

    I took the view that going through a farmyard close to a house in the dark at 3 a.m. was unwise, whatever my rights under access law. It would not have been unreasonable for the owner to react badly to seeing my lights and hearing someone moving around in the dark amongst their stock and machinery.

    As for going through the estate in Upsettlington, the problem with that was not knowing how close to the house the drive went.

    @Chrisfl - thanks for passing on the feedback. Interesting to see why the wrinkles occur. I think sometimes cycle.travel might benefit from increasing the penalties for weaving a little more...

    Posted 4 years ago #

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