Scooters are definitely the problem, yes.
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jul/15/invasion-electric-scooter-backlash
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Invasion of the electric scooter: can our cities cope?
(21 posts)-
Posted 5 years ago #
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Very interesting - seem to be popular with drinkers in København. 12 thrown into harbour too and many abandoned randomly. 'Polluter pays' legislation would take the sheen off these companies. Average life is 28 weeks of hire scooter.
I'm all for alternatives to driving and was impressed when one customer dropped off bike and then took out her non powered folding micro scooter out back sack to continue her journey. E-scooters and drinkers though pose a risk to users and pedestrians.
Edinburgh's pavements are rammed with visitors and lack of segregated bike lanes plus cobbled streets make scooting less attractive here.
They are illegal in UK but expect pressure to overturn from US companies. ScotGov could regulate against maybe or ensure costs of littering are met.Posted 5 years ago # -
I have seen e-scooter use in south Edinburgh. Looked precarious.
Posted 5 years ago # -
bring them (if properly regulated) - great way of getting about.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Cars have to go though.
Posted 5 years ago # -
We can't really call them 'active travel' though?
People e-scooting between pubs and cafes using none of their own energy will contribute to weight gain.
People malign e-bikes but you do have to pedal so have some benefit.
If we replaced word 'e-scooter' with 'Segway' then many here would be against.
Mobility scooter and e-wheelchairs are totally different as users don't have choice.
Transport policy should be about making the right choice easy.
What is the 'right choice'? I would say one that encourages the 3 strands of public transport, cycling and walking. Just Eat style e-scooting is none of these and could damage all equally. Private individual use is not a threat (yet).Posted 5 years ago # -
I'm right at the optimistic end of the spectrum on this, for Edinburgh, given our current poor infra and low cycling modal share - having a new billion pound force pushing for better human-centric infra, plus thousands of new users asking for the same, yes, for us, brilliant, I think.
Posted 5 years ago # -
My optimistic view is that e-scooters and other similar things encourage not taking the car out, not owning a car at all and linking in with public transport. This encourages walking and cycling in other ways and takes cars of the street. I understand the 'not active travel' argument but given this wider picture it probably encourages active travel and if people are insistent on not active travelling or cannot, I would rather they uesd scooter than a car.
Would be interesting to see if the actual statistics in cities where they are already common agree with me.
Posted 5 years ago # -
@jonty: I'm dubious.
People who are insistent on not travelling actively most likely prefer being tucked up in a nice warm, safe, private box. Otherwise there's nothing to stop them riding a motorbike (even an electric one - such things do now exist) or motor scooter right now if they could be persuaded to ditch the car. Or even taking public transport, where it is available.
Those who cannot travel actively probably fall more or less in to two camps: (a) not physically able, and (b) need to be able to transport large loads. A tiny proportion of the former might be able to use an electric scooter, but it's no kind of solution for those in the latter group. (I suppose a third group might be those who need to travel long distances. Again, an e-scooter isn't going to be any use for that.)
In Edinburgh, you can pretty much bet that as soon as the weather turns bad all those semi-converted e-scooterists would be rushing back to their cars. (As happens already anyway amongst a proportion of otherwise active travellers, or users of public transport.)
Posted 5 years ago # -
More on Bird here. Sounds unlikely to make it...
https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/07/15/1563192673000/How-not-to-dispute-a-story--Bird-edition/
Posted 5 years ago # -
There's a lot of these in Brussels (Lime one IIRC) and they seemed to be pretty popular, making light work of the hills there. Can't say I liked them. They litter the pavements once they've been abandonned (same with the Uber Jump bikes), and they're really heavy. One that had been parked on the edge of the pavement on the inside of a tight corner got knocked over by a turning bus and I only just caught it in time to prevent it hitting a guy sitting at a pavement cafe.
They seemed to be mainly getting used on the roads, which looked pretty hairy. However, I wouldn't want to see them in pedestrian spaces or on a cycleway. In the right hands they're probably fine, but in the wrong hands/drunk hands/incompetent hands things could go badly wrong.
Posted 5 years ago # -
I'm just back from a 4 day trip to London where e-scooters seemed to be everywhere but in the main seemed to be used pretty responsibly & respectfully.
Mostly I was out and about at dignified times of day so what it might be like later in the evening I'm not able to comment.
I can see both sides of this and would hope Edinburgh learns from the experiences of other cities. It's only a matter of time before they arrive here in numbers.Posted 5 years ago # -
It's a good discussion as ever here.
We should 'embrace change' and try to understand why people make the choices they do.
Fact is that e-scooters are just one of many changes we will see. If the city here allocates more space to people outside of their motorised boxes then it will work.
Posted 5 years ago # -
They're an interesting solution to the last mile problem - little energy required and pretty fun. Biggest annoyance I've had with them is irresponsible parking!
They're great on smooth cycle lanes. I wouldn't particularly enjoy them on Edinburgh's streets...
Posted 5 years ago # -
Perhaps we might view in the context of other electric-powered versions of manually propelled 'carriages' - for the legal framework set by the Highways Act 1835 (England & Wales) plus the Roads Scotland Act 1984.
Most relevant is Section 72 of the HA 1835 (and 129.5 of RScA 1984).
Cycles have been recognised by statute as carriages since 1888, and EAPC applies additional requirements for a cycle
Invalid Carriages have the 1988 Invalid Carriages Act which sets criteria for manual and powered wheelchairs.
For powered carriages permitted to use a footway rather than a carriageway, the top speed must be limited to 4mph
So it would be appropriate for any scooter or similar 'carriage' to have a capped speed of 4 mph (for use on footways)
EAPC and 'assisted wheelchairs' all require the wheels to be initially set in motion by manual effort. So (as I recall was the case for a scooter I used at a Lancaster Cyclefest around 1994) the power will only cut in if the wheels are rolling, us the user has to push-off with their foot to set the scooter moving.
As with EAPC, and the Class 2 and 3 Invalid Carriages, criteria can be set that determine weight and power ceilings. A scooter could have a weight limit (perhaps 15-30Kg?) so that with rider (60-140Kg?) it might at say 6.5Km/h be within an acceptable envelope of Kinetic Energy in a crash (number crunchers like @arellcat & @hankchief (& @IWRATS?) might take this away & weigh up the KE dispersed in a crash vs impact strength of the average human body decelerating 6.5Km/h to 0Km/h - or absorbing the impact of said human plus scooter)
By way of reference in 2001, I hit the road with my left hip and decelerated from around 30Km/h to 0Km/h almost instantaneously, delivering a hairline fracture of the hip joint by way of absorbing that energy - more recently a c.25Km/h body check of a BT pole broke a rib.... If only more cycle crash data was collated and reviewed - Prof Oliver - here's another paper for you to write?
What power cap should there be? 50W-100W seems tio be around the envelope to maintain 6.5 Km/h with say 100Kg on the scooter and not scooting to maintain speed against rolling resistance on a flat pavement surface. (Number nerds a second call?)
Must cut off there, a paper to finish on the bike hanging system on Azumas, HST's, Class 156, and Voyagers, and how these may leave train operators exposed to claims, and Section 3 liabilities (HSAW 1974) through requiring passengers to lift loads outside the safe envelopes defined by Manual Handling Regs (MHOR 1992)....
Posted 5 years ago # -
I think they're great. Just been to Paris and used them. I love how you can unlock them with the app and then park at your destination without having to look for a docking station as with the Edinburgh bikes. Of course, when I parked I made sure that it wasn't obstructing the path or road (which should be a law if they are introduced to the UK).
I also agree that they shouldn't be used on pathways, but I don't see how they would cause issues if used responsibly on cycle lanes, bus lanes and small roads. If these encourage people to ditch their cars, then why not? Isn't Edinburgh council doing everything to try and limit traffic and congestion in the city?
I do believe that there need to be restrictions and laws if they are introduced, such as requiring a driving licence, helmet and ensuring that they are parked correctly.
Posted 5 years ago # -
I saw a guy on one heading along St John’s Road yesterday during rush hour.
Posted 5 years ago # -
One going up Lothian Rd this morning, another on the canel path.
On balance I think great.
Posted 5 years ago # -
Woman with tailored trousers and fake leopard jacket powering along Dundee St at 12mph yesterday.
I didn't overtake. Little wheels on scooter taking a hammering but nippy enough to weave round worst of road surface.Posted 5 years ago # -
Bleeding fake leopards getting everywhere these days
Panthers are fake apparently if you look closely enough they are just leopards
Electric scooters good if stop you taking the car. Just watch out for dem potholes as @laidback says
Posted 5 years ago # -
Had a go on a hacked e-scooter on the streets of a Lyon suburb last weekend. It went at 30kph flat out.
Conclusion;
1) Potentially great vehicle for urban commuting.
2) Twitchy steering and throttle but great fun.
3) Impossible to ride on Edinburgh streets as the solid wheels are the same size as the road surface defects. You'd fall off on Leith Walk or Craigmillar Park.Could well be a winner if motor vehicles (along with the damage they do) were confined to special motor lanes.
Posted 4 years ago #
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