This looks positive...
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Cameron Toll to Bio Quarter
(76 posts)- Started 4 years ago by HankChief
- Latest reply from CycleAlex
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Posted 4 years ago #
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Ha, I was JUST about to link this :)
Posted 4 years ago # -
You snooze you lose ;-)
Posted 4 years ago # -
Information Sessions (first is tomorrow!)
16 Oct 2019 at 11:00-18:00
Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh, Main Mall, EH16 4SA17 Oct 2019 at 11:00-16:30
University of Edinburgh Medical School, Edinburgh BioQuarter, Chancellors Building, EH16 4SB19 Oct 2019 at 12:00-17:00
Cameron Toll Shopping Centre, Outside EE, EH16 5PB22 Oct 2019 at 11:00-18:00
Edinburgh BioQuarter, Building Nine, EH16 4UX
Looks very good at first glance, although no doubt I'll find things to moan about when I look more closely ;)
Posted 4 years ago # -
Bah @ all the sessions being during the day when I'm at work (And I have plans on Saturday) :(
None of the before / after images are working for me though (They give a blank page), maybe my work firewall...
EDIT: Yup, I have to use my phone on 4G.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Frenchy - yeah, it fundamentally looks quite good. My main gripe would be that most of the bi-directional cycle lane on Old Dalkeith Road is only 2m wide. Even Cycling by Design calls that the "Absolute Minimum Width".
In addition, several hundred metres of bus lane is wiped out - so walking and cycling benefit at the expense of bus passengers. Hardly ideal.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Looks positive!
But...
it would be really nice if we could start thinking about junctions rather than individual routes. We'll presumably get a 'Cameron Toll to King's Buildings' consultation in a couple of years which will consult and dig up the junction again to add an east-west connection to the Craigmillar Park junction, then another route out of the city centre a few years later which might finish the job. Could we just just do it in a oner? And of course there's then the Cameron Toll junction down the road which is basically ignored save for improving the existing, limited link.
Posted 4 years ago # -
@Morningsider It’s never great to lose bus priority but realistically where else would you get the space? I’d imagine trying to get the land next to Old Dalkeith Road would take forever and cost a fortunate.
Posted 4 years ago # -
@Frenchy - Dropbox is blocked, so nope. I can see them on my phone anyway, and the still images in the consultation work, so it's fine.
Filled this in just now - all looks great to me, my only comments were on the width (2.5m around Lady Road, which is a bit stingy for bi-directional) and the Craigmillar Castle Road junction - the S-bend in the cycle way ends up at a give way, where Southbound cyclists have to look behind them for traffic approaching at 30 mph. Having it run straight, adjacent to the road, with the give way from Craigmillar Castle Road behind the cycleway would be better IMO (Though that is asking for Northbound drivers to pull across the cycleway without giving way - and probably Southbound too, now I think about it).
I noticed the lack of bus lanes - I don't tend to travel on Dalkeith Road at rush hour though, so don't know how much of an impact it'd have.
Posted 4 years ago # -
@jonty - Indeed. There are already plans for "Marchmont to KB", and Midlothian Council has (very long-term) plans for Sheriffhall to The Wisp.
That leaves two notable, but relatively short, gaps: KB to Cameron Toll and BioQuarter to The Wisp. KB to Cameron Toll could easily be part of the "Marchmont to KB" plans, to be fair.
Posted 4 years ago # -
The give way for the cycle lane on lady Road is a bad joke. Gonna have about 100 bikes per turning car.
Posted 4 years ago # -
@CycleAlex - yes, it seems to be the only practical solution. I suppose I'm just disappointed that the choice seems to be active vs. sustainable travel, while ensuring motorists are not inconvenienced.
Posted 4 years ago # -
This was on the huge list of projects that was discussed at the Transport Committee in June with construction starting in June 2022.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Bioquarter to Dalkeith Road
and Mayfield, Ongoing, Jun/22, Nov/23I look forward to attending the RSO hearing in 2030.
Posted 4 years ago # -
When crossing Craigmillar Castle Road on foot, I cross further up even than that S-bend to try to give myself a fighting chance. It's a horrible junction and invariably involves doing the trotty jog thing to avoid being squished by something winging round the corner. I assume king traffic flow is the reason there isn't a crossing intended there. It needs one though.
Posted 4 years ago # -
I need to look closer but I think the council have successfully trolled me again.
1) I don't think I'd use it downhill - those swervy S-bends and pavement crossings would take all the joy out of it. Too narrow as well. One metre lanes means you'd almost be at canal-type elbow-brushing proximity.
2) Not clear you can turn right into Cameron Toll on Lady Road. Who ever goes there right enough?
3) Madame IWRATS will lose the bus lane to work for an isolated stretch of cycle lane neither of us will use.
Idea: The council decide on sustainable and active travel corridors towards the south of the city and make them lovely.
Also decide on a sewer for the displaced non-evaporating private motor cars and make it truly loathsome. Pedestrian barriers, narrow pavements, underpasses, roundabouts, bits on stilts the lot.
Posted 4 years ago # -
@IWRATS, interesting point, the balanced approach needs as many drivers as cyclists. So all new people moving themselves in and around edinburgh must of necessity be cyclists? For the balance approach to have any chance.
Leave all the drivers out circling the city on the ring road, waiting to park to take electric burger bikes into the city
Hard to square this circle with the idea of modal shift
Posted 4 years ago # -
Posted on facebook originally because I couldn't log in here yesterday. Anyway, I use this route quite a lot presently. I work at Teviot and frequently cycle to the RIE and Bioquarter.
I find myself wondering who actually designs these things? Do they actually use a bike?
There is no way I am cycling down Old Dalkeith Rd on a 2m wide bi-directional cycle lane *against* the motor traffic. Aside from being blinded by headlights when it's dark, if anyone is cycling in the opposite direction then our closing speed is going to be over 30mph.
The section from Craigmillar Park to the 3m wide cycle-lane on Old Dalkeith Rd seems reasonable enough. I have no idea how it links up to people cycling down Dalkeith Rd (e.g. from Pollock Halls or Holyrood Park.) Without easy access to the bike lane you will possibly have all the south bound bike traffic staying in the road until the bike lane crosses over. At which point bikes may stay in the road rather than use a narrow, bi-directional cycle lane on a steep hill.
The Craigmillar Castle Junction is also a waste of paint. Do they honestly think anyone is going to wait to cross rather than just cycling in the road?
It really does feel like cycle lanes designed by people who have only ever read about bikes in a book. Have completed the consultation on that basis.
Posted 4 years ago # -
if anyone is cycling in the opposite direction then our closing speed is going to be over 30mph
See also the Mound.
cycle lanes designed by people who have only ever read about bikes in a book
Very good.
Posted 4 years ago # -
IWRATS - yes! I suppose when we look at proposed cycling infrastructure we should really ask:
"Is there any reason why there aren't segregated cycle lanes on either side of the road, which have clear priority over side roads?"
Anything else is really a compromise.
Lets face it, we support the development of narrow bi-directional lanes that jink over pavements, switch sides and give way at side streets because they are much better than what we have got. Not because we think they are great.
I'm torn between two arguments:
1. We should support the Council - as getting these things built requires scarce political capital, even rarer actual capital and that projects are slowly getting better (it's not the QBC).
2. Time is up - why should cyclists continually support poor quality infrastructure. There is a climate emergency, modal shift to bike has been national and local policy for over a decade. Decisive action is needed. Who is really going to get out of their car to use this standard of infrastructure?I have to admit - I have generally argued for the first option. I'm now tending towards the second.
Since CCE started in 2009, about 700m of fairly shonky segregated cycle lane has been built in the city. Not exactly great progress. Yes, I know about CCWEL, City Centre Transformation...if cycle lanes were simply a matter of reports, then I reckon Copenhagen Council would be coming here to learn from the best.
Sorry, not in a particularly positive mood today.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Questions I'll be asking at the information session today (please feel free to suggest others):
Can the roundabout on Lady Road be disappeared?
Can the Cameron Toll roundabout be turned into a T-junction?
Will it be quicker to cycle on the path or the road from ODR to Lady Road?
No plans to improve the rest of the Liberton Road junction at the same time (Reduce number of lanes, un-stagger crossings etc.)?
Why can't this go as far as The Wisp?
Why can't this go as far as KB?
What would need to be removed in order to have 1.5m wide undirectional lanes?
Why isn't there priority over side roads?
Would cycleways on Gilmerton Road be a better priority than on Old Dalkeith Road?Posted 4 years ago # -
What would need to be removed in order to have 1.5m wide undirectional lanes?
I have always underestimated the importance of a thing: human beings' need to travel side by side and to talk as they go.
Cars, buses, pavements. Trains. Planes. All of them allow side-by-side locomotion.
Only the hated outcast on her bicycle is expected to sneak around in monastic single file.
Posted 4 years ago # -
I think the answer to that question is most likely "a traffic lane or 1.5m of trees belonging to the golf course".
Posted 4 years ago # -
I think lighting along the Craigmillar Castle Park path would help access to this. At the moment I know a few who refuse to cycle it at night. Then that could become the standard Craigmillar to KB route.
Posted 4 years ago # -
@IWRATS, if you go to the Hagerston Castle (breezeblock castle) near Berwick Upon Tweed, you can hire the side by side tandem cycling things, often also Surreys with fringed 70s material canvas roofs
Ducks and drakes and geese better scurry
When Iwrats takes the Hagerston SurreyPosted 4 years ago # -
@Morningsider It’s hard, on the one hand a 2m bi-directional cycleway really is just rubbish. Especially on a route that’ll get a decent amount of traffic. But then I look at things like Facebook and see adults throwing complete fits and tantrums at the tiniest improvements and changes to junctions and think that frankly we’re lucky to have these proposals of infrastructure to complain about.
Come 2022 should there be a Con/Lib coalition we might be discussing the latest consultation on an ASL...
On bi/unidirectional, personally I’d prefer a proper 4m bi-directional compared to 1.5/2m unidirectional lanes.
Posted 4 years ago # -
I'm sure it has been asked before, but what if bad infrastructure is worse than no infrastructure? The proposed developments won't come cheap and will require significant political will and capital.
Say it gets completed along the lines of the current plans and no one uses it. The reason no one uses it is that it makes cycling in the area more inconvenient, slower and less safe than it currently is.
For example, I usually travel to RIE through the Meadows and make a point of using the bike lane on Buccleuch Place even though it is somewhat inconvenient and it's a rare day I see another cyclist use it. I then used to try and use the little bit of bike lane on St Leonard's Street but it just puts me at risk at the junction and getting back on the road. Maybe I cycle at the wrong time of day but I see virtually no use of this infrastructure. It cost time and effort to build, upset various people and sits there unused. This has the look of a similar approach: little bits of infrastructure squeezed in around the edges.
Happy to be wrong about this. Perhaps whoever did the research and drew up the plans can point to the evidence they are drawing on. I would much rather be supporting plans than complaining.
I should say that the wider bi-directional lane and the cross over at Cameron Toll seems viable. I wouldn't use it going out to the RIE because it's simpler and more convenient to do down Dalkeith Rd and across the roundabout but I would use it coming back.
BTW has anyone ever tried using the weird cycle lane across that roundabout? I can't for the life of me figure out how to get to it without being squashed.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Say it gets completed along the lines of the current plans and no one uses it.
Hello Leith Walk!
has anyone ever tried using the weird cycle lane across that roundabout?
@chdot has. Nobody else. You take the right hand lane northbound on Old Dalkeith Road and dive off onto the pedestrian island. Impossible if the lights are at green, obviously.
Posted 4 years ago # -
@deleriad I think you're using the segregated cycle lanes that connect the meadows and the Innocent when you're not cycling between the meadows and the Innocent path. This definitely just makes cycling less safe, but the lanes are useful if you're going from the Innocent to the Meadows.
I've heard of punishment passes for not using these lanes, despite them only being useful for certain directions. This is probably an unavoidable problem without doing every route in the city simultaneously. Although there is definitely scope within this project to make Cameron Toll gyratory more user friendly from all directions.. The two lanes going east to westbound are misunderstood by ~1/3rd of motorists, making that junction terrifying. Widening the pedestrian space, (plus maybe making it shared use to connect to the new infrastructure) and dropping that bit to one westbound lane would help.
Posted 4 years ago #
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