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STPR2 - Transport Scotland’s Second Strategic Transport Projects Review

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  1. fimm
    Member

    Has this been linked to elsewhere?
    https://www.snapsurveys.com/wh/s.asp?k=157477907343
    "Transport Scotland’s Second Strategic Transport Projects Review (STPR2) aims to identify potential transport interventions as part of a Scotland-wide appraisal of strategic transport options and is intended to inform investment priorities for the next 20 years."

    Some suggestions here:
    https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/help-shape-scotlands-transport-priorities-20-years

    I've done it: there's plenty of space to rant (I mean, make positive suggestions) at the end.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  2. sallyhinch
    Member

    POP view https://pedalonparliament.org/getting-strategic-why-you-need-to-respond-to-the-stpr2/

    Note that as you fill it in, if you put 'very dissatisfied' for anything, it will ask you for your top 3 priorities among those.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  3. acsimpson
    Member

    I don't think the survey is very well designed. I have to assume that it is designed by one of the old school TS staff for who growth is good and anything else is bad.

    If I am dissatisfied by the "Frequency of air services" or "number of overtaking opportunities" because I think there are too many of both how would i indicate this as being different to wanting more more more.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  4. sallyhinch
    Member

    I assumed that by putting very satisfied with those sort of things then that would lower their priority. I felt it was actually one of the less awkward consultations - the one for the South West Scotland that came out earlier was frankly bizarre as it didn't allow you to comment on any of the individual options proposed. I feel sorry for whoever's going to have to collate and make sense of what will have been crammed into the 'any other comment' box at the end of that one

    Posted 4 years ago #
  5. acsimpson
    Member

    Sally, yes that is what I decided in the end. It's designed from the point of view of someone who think that you would only be dissatisfied if you want more of something.

    There is no option at the end to save your responses but there is a suggestion that you complete it for another region. When other people are completing it you might want to make a note of what you type into the free boxes so that you don't have to type it again.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  6. sallyhinch
    Member

    I think the main thing is that we get high priority among the responses for walking and cycling infrastructure (and buses and trains) and as many replies suggesting something along the lines of a complete cycling network as possible. I'm hoping that the government, or some part of the government, is actually minded to invest in sustainable transport (at least, that's what the draft transport strategy document implied) and we're helping to give them the backbone to face down the excesses of the roads lobby.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

  8. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I gave the survey a go, but it's structure is deeply irritating as noted.

    And as for the 'gender' and sexuality bit.....

    Posted 4 years ago #
  9. fimm
    Member

    IWRATS you clearly don't do enough surveys. Those type of questions are bog-standard. And while as a white cis-het male you may not be bothered about such things, those who do not share your privilege may disagree.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  10. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    What's a 'white cis-het male'?

    Posted 4 years ago #
  11. gembo
    Member

    IWRATS cis is latin if that helps?

    Posted 4 years ago #
  12. Morningsider
    Member

    There is no point in most surveys asking these personal questions, as the results are rarely used. No serious analysis of results by age/gender/health/race/socio-economic status is ever undertaken. Results are rarely weighted using these factors to better represent the views of the general population. Although it is questionable whether being, for example, of Indian rather than Pakistani heritage alters your views on the availability of overtaking opportunities on Scottish trunk roads.

    Researchers often only add these questions out of habit, or to make the organisation producing the survey look "inclusive".

    Posted 4 years ago #
  13. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Morningsider

    That's what I figured. If I'm a Catholic Eskimo dog fetishist (and I am) I don't expect my views on ferry timetables to be amplified or discounted.

    I do though expect every Council igloo to have a private kennel/chapel.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  14. CocoShepherd
    Member

    @IWRATS

    I think that Eskimo is considered non-PC these days (politically correct not parish church). Other than that, no judgments of your sexual preference for huskies. Come to think of it, they do have the most beautiful eyes.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  15. fimm
    Member

    white and male obvious I hope
    het = heterosexual
    cis = not trans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cis%E2%80%93trans_isomerism)

    Posted 4 years ago #
  16. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    cis = not trans

    There we have it.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  17. jonty
    Member

    The consequences of any act the council takes will be different on different groups and minorities. It's important to know who's actually responding to the consultation vs. who will be affected by it.

    This is particularly relevant when talking about transport, as car dominance affects people very disproportionately based on all sorts of characteristics. For example, women are more likely to manage childcare and so will make more individual journeys per day, yet are less likely to have access to a car. It would therefore be sensible to consider gender participation rates in a consultation which came out overwhelmingly in favour of replacing all cycle tracks with highways on stilts.

    I've only read extracts, but as an example, Invisible Women covers the bad things that can happen when we make decisions based on data which ignores or does not include enough women. Things like women dying more in car crashes, because the tests dummies are shaped like the average man, and suffering worse drug side effects, because they tend to be tested more on men than women.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  18. Morningsider
    Member

    CCE at its finest - research methods, gender studies and dog fetishism. All in four posts!

    Posted 4 years ago #
  19. Morningsider
    Member

    @jonty - I agree wholeheartedly. The trouble is, this rarely happens in practice - even if these questions are posed. This is generally due to a lack of resources, time and expertise available to the officials running consultations. Personally, I think it is worse to pose these questions and then do nothing with the answers, rather than just not asking them at all. Why? It gives the impression of action when none is actually being taken.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  20. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @jonty

    I am a trained and experienced scientist. I am a big fan of empirical data, intelligible language, the scientific method and the notion of a coherent universe with characteristics observable by all comers.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  21. jonty
    Member

    I think the question of good data handling in consultations is a wider one - it particularly annoys me when they're treated as representative surveys. However, in principle, you don't have to always use all the data you collect for it still to be useful. If you consult on a random road change and see that the data is roughly representative, fine. If you consult on cutting childcare and discover all the respondents are 70-year-old men, it's maybe time to widen the net.

    Even if the council never uses the data immediately, it could still be useful for interested groups trying to challenge or interpret the findings later. Equally, the council may use it to understand why a specific intervention which seemed to be supported has actually failed or faced later opposition.

    I was talking to someone who works for an English council recently and they said that they noticed their transport priorities consultation just wasn't being engaged with by a part of the city largely populated by Indian immigrants. They put someone on the ground and discovered that people who had a car wanted less congestion, but most people didn't have cars and were sick of the buses were rubbish. They also hated crossing the nearby main road to get anywhere. None of that came through in the original consultation. Working at diverse representation is important, and the first part of that is understanding where your data is coming from.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  22. Rosie
    Member

    I think when I'm ticking the age/sex box is that I'm showing that cycling transport isn't just for the stereotype of the young/middle-aged bloke in lycra. If I've read Morningsider aright, it looks like that mild sense of satisfaction is misplaced.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  23. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I've asked them how they will use the data on ethnic background, gender, religion and sexual orientation in the analysis and reporting of the transport-related data, also why they're not recording the sex of survey participants.

    EDIT

    the first part of that is understanding where your data is coming from

    I routinely lie about my age and sex for online surveys. I imagine other do too.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  24. jonty
    Member

    I guess my point above as applied to local circumstances would be that, by asking these questions, Pete Gregson can't go 'ach it's all just MAMILS who want this' without that being directly challengeable with the data. Without those questions the council would have no recourse to that.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  25. gembo
    Member

    oooh, I will check but I think that is a slight simplification of cis

    Posted 4 years ago #
  26. Morningsider
    Member

    @jonty - again, I agree. However (again), in practice public bodies don't normally care who responds. It's the number of responses that "count". Consultation is effectively an end in itself. The more responses, the more successful a consultation is considered to have been. I have never heard of a public body going back to a consultation as part of a lessons learned exercise or using some new analysis of responses to rebut claims made about a proposal. If more than 50% of respondents support the proposal being consulted upon then job done.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  27. jonty
    Member

    Councils being rubbish at consultations is a separate issue, isn't it? The logical end point of that argument is removing all the questions from a consultation and not bothering in the first place.

    (Not saying that wouldn't be a bad thing in a lot of cases.)

    Posted 4 years ago #
  28. mgj
    Member

    What a pointless and misleading survey. I answered that I was unhappy with the air travel options but there was no place to say there that I think air travel is too cheap and it should be curtailed. No doubt my answer could be used to build support for airport expansion...

    Posted 4 years ago #
  29. acsimpson
    Member

    @mgj, that was my point. Similarly I'm not happy with the level of provision for overtaking. A second lane is more often used as by non law abiding drivers to break the speed limit rather than perform legal overtaking manoeuvres.

    It was designed by the establishment for those who want it to become more established.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  30. Rosie
    Member

    Spokes submission here:-

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/documents/campaign-submissions/national2/

    Posted 4 years ago #

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