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“National Cycle Network cuts a quarter of its routes on safety grounds”

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  1. jonty
    Member

    I mean, as far as I understand it, in terms of funding Sustrans may as well be a public body that people sometimes post their pocket money to, so clearly there is some appetite for public spending on this sort of thing, however it's constituted. Perhaps being a charity makes it easier to get things done somehow, but then why are all other types of infrastructure not getting on the bandwagon? The Queensferry Crossing was not delivered by Bridgetrans, nor is the A9 upgrade being delivered by Cartrans.

    As Rob says, maybe this is all missing the point - perhaps it's wrong to focus on the Big Campaigning Picture and look at the immediate impacts.

    Will this cause the cancellation of any existing Sustrans investment? No.

    Will this tear out any physical infrastructure (excluding signage), regardless of quality? No.

    Does this prevent Sustrans having an aspirational (and probably more direct) national route map outlining key 'missing links'? No.

    Will this wipe all knowledge of the existing routes off the face of the earth, or prevent Sustrans or others from advertising them in some other way? No.

    Will this make it easier and more pleasant to plan routes if I can trust that any given NCN route will well surfaced, well signed and obstruction free? Yes.

    Entirely selfishly, I wonder if the last one is all I really care about by this point.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  2. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I don't understand why people are upset about this.

    Because of all the money and resources they have squandered while claiming to be building a national network.

    They've been taking the mickey out of us for a decade, quite openly.

    What they have said changes nothing on the ground, but it does make them look quite awful.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    @ Rob

    “I don't understand why people are upset about this”

    I *think* the point is that whatever the failings (perceived or real) of Sustrans, the bits they are ‘no longer endorsing’ are unlikely to get better - EVER.

    How much other bits get improved remains to be seen.

    I doubt if anyone will step in and champion improvement of many ex-NCN bits.

    Obviously the whole NCN was a conceit as having ‘perfect’ cycle routes everywhere was always going to be difficult.

    BUT the idea galvanised a lot of people and Councils AND got a LOT of (Millennium) money.

    If Sustrans has been this ‘realistic’ in the past there would now be a lot less NCN to abandon.

    It’s only relatively recently that Sustrans Scotland realised how much people valued routes that went to (local) places they wanted to go to rather than grand long distance routes.

    So better infrastructure between villages and towns (for instance).

    Sustrans can’t do everything - and shouldn’t be expected to, but (so far) the question remains -

    If not Sustrans, who?

    Posted 4 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    “Because of all the money and resources they have squandered while claiming to be building a national network.”

    Really?

    Do you mean standard corporate empire building large corporate HQs, salaries and ‘executive’ cars?

    Not looked at their web sites lately so have no clear how much they have been saying they have been building the NCN.

    They have always relied on partnerships with landowners and LAs and have few actual powers and relatively little owned land.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  5. MediumDave
    Member

    @jonty and others -

    Will this make it easier and more pleasant to plan routes if I can trust that any given NCN route will well surfaced, well signed and obstruction free? Yes.

    Well...the quality of much of the the remaining network is poor.

    If I was them I'd have redesignated the truly quality bits of the network as "A grade" or something. Leaving the rest as "F minus" I suppose...

    For example the bit of NCN 7 north of Callander is pretty good up until Strathyre. I'd happily designate that bit B+. At least.

    (Then the route randomly leaves the railway trackbed to take in a section of gravelly singletrack uphill through a field. With hairpins. And a cattle grid. *facepalm*)

    Other parts of the route involve going over the Duke's Pass by forest roads advertised as "The Achray Forest Drive" Which is nice and all but tends to bring you in contact with Simon and Lindsay:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Flash Videos

    All this forms part of the updated network.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  6. jonty
    Member

    I can't find any bits of the Scottish NCN that have been removed on the OS site - has it definitely been updated?

    Posted 4 years ago #
  7. MediumDave
    Member

    @jonty Good question, I'd assumed that it had been since

    https://www.sustrans.org.uk/our-blog/news/2020/july/sustrans-to-enhance-family-offer-on-the-national-cycle-network-as-uk-moves-out-of-lockdown/

    mentions "online mapping". But maybe not.

    Edit: I see dashed lines on bits of the Caledonia Way up the side of Loch Ness which (presumably) were formerly on the network and also Strathyre/Balquiddher road loop.

    None of my examples are affected by the changes - all still solid lines so on the network.

    Also, going Aberfoyle/Drymen on road is still part of the network. Now that is busy! Strathyre/Balquiddher, not so much...

    Posted 4 years ago #
  8. Rob
    Member

    They're marked with dashed lines now. Around Edinburgh I see:

    * NCN 76 around Seton Sands
    * NCN 1 to Innerleithen

    @chdot it feels like this is Sustrans giving up on LAs/land owners who refuse to make improvements. I doubt it'll make them more likely to do them but at least now we can see where they are.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  9. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    Yes, they're marked with dashed lines for now, but "not on the National Cycle Network". I suspect once Sustrans reckon the furore has died down, they'll be deleted altogether. After all, why have something "not on the National Cycle Network" on a NCN map layer?

    Posted 4 years ago #
  10. jonty
    Member

    So the Granites road is out - too hilly? - but the steps over Brunstane station bridge are still in. This is not quite what I imagined would happen.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  11. stiltskin
    Member

    I’m pretty sure they are going to remove signage, so NCN 1 will no longer be signed down to Berwick. I don’t think that is an improvement. I also think that some of their decisions are perverse. Can’t see what is wrong with the granites. It’s a pretty quiet road? Or are they now saying that all they are promoting are routes you can take a 5 year old on. If so I think that is pretty short sighted.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  12. jonty
    Member

    What's going on here?

    https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/55.81966,-3.07726,15

    Posted 4 years ago #
  13. Rob
    Member

    Access points are also marked on the map with a dashed line, e.g. bits around the NEPN that aren't on the main route. Leaving the removed parts on the map as "ways to get to/from the NCN route" makes some kind of sense.

    @jonty agreed on the bridge. I'm also surprised that Newcraighall and Whitecraig are still on there.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  14. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    Yep - Granites are out but negotiating the whizzy roundabout where Cockpen Rd crosses the Bonnyrigg distributor is all good in neuSustrans world. Go figure.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    WELL

    Maybe opportunity to concentrate on the dodgy bits that are still NCN...

    Posted 4 years ago #
  16. stiltskin
    Member

    As a supporter I have fired off an e-mail to them.....Green Font

    Posted 4 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    “agreed on the bridge”

    Could be better, but no real point in taking it off the map.

    Strong argument for signing ‘step-free alternative’(s).

    Posted 4 years ago #
  18. Cyclops
    Member

    rural roads faster than 40mph are being taken out of the network.

    Admittedly, that includes the Granites but also lots of other bits of the NCN which seem to have survived. If they removed all rural roads with the NSL there wouldn't be much left in Scotland outside urban areas.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  19. jonty
    Member

    Ah ha. To be fair, they seem to have succeeded in getting the limits on a lot of the rural roads I've used reduced with "40mph walking and cycling friendly road" signs.

    As you say though, for one I see the NSL Dalmeny road is still NCN though, and surely busier?

    Posted 4 years ago #
  20. Rob
    Member

    @jonty is there any map of roads like that? They should do it for all roads which require passing places.

    I tested my theory that route planning will be easier by trying to work out how to get to the canal. The still-on-NCN75 looks awful (I've read too many posts on here about King's Theatre junction).

    Posted 4 years ago #
  21. jonty
    Member

    Not that I know of. I've seen it on the South Loch Tay road and somewhere on the NCN1/775 going to Perth. OSM wizardry to link NCN routes with 40 limits would probably give you some idea, or else there may be few enough that searching through press releases might be enough to find them all!

    Posted 4 years ago #
  22. acsimpson
    Member

    I'm confused by the new mapping. Hartside pass now has a gap in it which I assume wasn't there before and that is where signage removal was mentioned in the article. Perhaps the dashed sections will still be signed but not designated as NCN anymore.

    I even more confused by the dashed yellow routes (Off road routes non on the NCN). I assume they are poor surfaces or less likely too many side roads with those stupid junctions which take require you to make a 90 degree turn while looking 135 degrees over your right shoulder to check for OLAMs not coming round the corner too fast.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  23. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I'm still annoyed about this. You can't just go around trumpeting your network and then admit it doesn't exist.

    It's like a con artist hanging around afterwards to laugh at you.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  24. wingpig
    Member

    "You can't just go around trumpeting your network and then admit it doesn't exist."

    I know exactly whom we need to resolve this metaphysical network issue.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  25. crowriver
    Member

    @IWRATS, "They've been taking the mickey out of us for a decade, quite openly."

    More like two decades.

    On reflection it's a great pity they have taken this decision, as it means the idea of a national network of long distance routes is effectively dead.

    Someone was asking why this is left to an overstretched charity to deliver. That's the British way since the Victorian era. Business and government fund and deliver the big, important stuff that's regarded as essential. The rest.....is left to charity.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  26. gkgk
    Member

    I read the article, like it. Edb to Dalmeny A90 cycleway has widened about an inch a year since the 90s - used to need trews for nettles on it, so narrow. The sustrans accreditation threshold for infra was getting dated (this last decade), time for a purge, to reset at a useful level and continue, makes sense. Whether Sustrans are good value in this work, separate question, I suppose.

    The (under construction) bridge over the a90 at Craigiehall has a 2m-wide cycleway/pavement, ends with a sign saying "Kirkliston (via busy road)", which right enough is info you'd want. I've no idea how it looks in any current network map.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  27. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I only just got @wingpig's joke. 21 hours I am slow.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  28. unhurt
    Member

    Seems to me it's probably quite nice for those making the big strategic decisions about transport policy and spending
    if people who want things to be different devote their energy to arguing about if/how much we've been "betrayed by Sustrans!" (whose powers and budget are, I understand, hardly extensive in the greater scheme of things). Maybe there are more productive targets.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  29. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Nobody can move on until they've expressed their anger. I am angry at Sustrans and need to say so but I won't waste energy on them.

    Posted 4 years ago #
  30. jonty
    Member

    https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/sections-of-national-cycle-network-across-highlands-downgraded-in-routes-shake-up-206620/

    This article seems to cover much better what's actually happening. Basically, no signs are coming down or routes are really coming off the map, but the NCN brand is going to become a promise that you're not going to end up on a super busy road. Fine. Maybe they can take out the steps next...

    Posted 4 years ago #

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