CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
https://twitter.com/Edinburgh_CC/status/1631234586867802112
For the avoidance of doubt, there are no plans to remove the plaque from Melville Monument in St Andrew Square. The committee decision yesterday was on a technicality: the application wasn’t from the owner of the statue, so no further action is required.
“
A group which includes members of the Dundas family said the plaque's wording is "cartoonishly inaccurate" and added it was "hurtful to our family."
“
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-plan-remove-melville-monument-26364613
Ha ha - aristos are the ultimate "snowflakes". "Waaa - someone has criticised the actions of my great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandpapa!"
so who does own it?
Paid for by the officers and men of the Royal Navy. Garden only opened to public relatively recently but my guess is goin* to be The Council?
Depends how you interpret it
Square owned by surrounding building owner but managed by CEC - who almost certainly paid for the plaque
Planning application highlighted entitlement and stupidity, will ‘owners’ (probably including various pension funds) back the family?
As I remember, the argument about the wording, was about the extent to which Dundas did or didn’t “delay” abolition.
Can’t remember if he/family benefitted financially.
If I was family I’d keep very quiet or offer some token ‘atonement’.
But then I probably couldn’t trace my family that far back…
EDIT
“Paid for by the officers and men of the Royal Navy.”
Why??
Dundas was King of Scotland. king Harry the ninth, and second in command In Pitt Govt. I am going to speculate he had the sailors paid properly for their duty.
They can’t all have been Masons.
“
A group founded by descendants of Henry Dundas seeking to salvage his reputation has claimed responsibility - but argued it acted "completely within the law".
“
Toffs getting militant. Totally legal to remove a plaque. As they alerted the owners when they met at The New Club.
Without an iota of reflection that this sort of entitlement is directly descended from a mindset which allowed a strata of humanity to believe it was legitimate to enslave their fellow humans.
I mean, yes, but also no? The council imposed a disputed - and not by crackpot racists, other actual respected historians - account of the history, and the result of that is seen in stuff like the article above; it's now taken as read that Dundas' reputation needs to be "salvaged", and in the context of a culture war in which people are being held responsible for the actions of their great great great great great etc ancestors I don't see this as "entitled toffs vs everyone else".
Pretty sure no-one is holding the current generation of Dundases responsible for the actions of their famous forbear, as that would be ridiculous.
I have to admit, up until a couple of years ago I couldn't have told you who the guy on the top of the pillar was. Can't say the fact that an 18th century Aristo with a huge monument to themselves in the city centre was a racist, and possibly delayed the abolition of slavery, came as a huge surprise.
I don't think the current generation of Dundases are doing themselves any favours. If they had to say or do anything then surely a quick statement along the lines of "Not sure we agree with the wording of the plaque, but we share concerns about this period in our family's history" would have sufficed. Followed by a long period of silence.
Still, I do enjoy the fact that their dunderheaded insistence on dragging this issue out simply attracts more attention to what they seem determined to hide. Someone should come up with a name for this phenomenon...
But that's a perfect example of what I was saying - you've taken it as read that the claims on the plaque are probably right and are judging the family accordingly, when by the other interpretation of events Dundas' actions in delaying things prevented abolition from being defeated outright; if someone accepts that interpretation, which you'd expect the family would, all they're doing is defending their family name and ancestor's reputation against a slander. Interpreting their actions as <rule2>y relies entirely on the new plaque's claims and emphasis being the correct version of events, which is nowhere near as much of a certainty as those responsible for it insist; to be clear, I don't take a position on which interpretation is more truthful, as far as I can tell there isn't enough evidence to prove it even beyond balance of probablity either way because we're being asked to look inside the mind of a dead man to decide whether and which of his stated intentions were genuine or cynical politicking, but that's rather the point - you find nothing about that on the plaque, just bald assertion.
And as for holding the current generation responsible, people have been using words like "atonement" in this thread, and there were calls at the time from some that they should personally pay reparations "in light of this new information" etc.
I don't think I have "...taken it as read that the claims on the plaque are probably right". I said "...possibly delayed the abolition of slavery...".
That is separate from me stating that Dundas was a racist. He was an 18th Century hereditary peer - it is simply a factor of his time and place.
What interests me is the actions of the current Dundases. Why involve yourself in it at all? Even if you think the plaque is wrong, what benefit comes from wading into the debate? I imagine it's some weird sort of aristocratic ancestor fetishisation - a possible insult to someone dead over 200 years is an insult to me!
Imagine living your life like that. Hell, I'm big enough to admit to holding some unsound views as a nipper in the 70s and 80s. I've lived and learned. Imagine trying to go into bat for the views held by 10 generations of your family, especially when they all thought they had a God given right to sit in Parliament and rule over us plebs. What does that do to your view of the world and the people in it?
I don’t think the other historians like Tam Devine are disputing Dundas. As the person who slowed down abolition and therefore assisted the ongoing slave trade. I think their beef was Geoff Palmer is not an academic historian.
Dundas marital scenario also deeply dodgy but that was also par for the course at the time.
Unless you think Michael Fry is anything other than an apologist?
If abolishing slavery were an issue that one man like Dundas was able to personally delay, I don’t see how it’s eventual resolution once he left the scene could cost 40% of GDP.
It’s easy for us to forget what a monumental commitment the was when a change in Britain meant enforcement around the globe.
Wasn't he also probably embezzling huge amounts of money from the Navy at one point? Can't help but wonder if the family uproar is partly to prevent deeper examination of other more petty family disgraces (and avoid forensic accounting on any inherited wealth...)
@Jonty, not sure about that, the statue was paid for by the officers and men serving in the Navy at the time. I think he paid their wages but how I don’t know.
But good point as not sure if wee Boaby D has asked the Navy if he can take off the plaque for his nefarious ends.
Note I have no idea what height Bob is though I do suspect taller than the height of nonsense.
“
“The plaque was affixed to heritable property by the City of Edinburgh Council (CEC), on the faith of an improperly obtained Planning Permission. By being affixed, it became part of the heritable property. It is accordingly not the property of CEC.”
“
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/henry-dundas-descendant-refuses-return-27990064
The plaque has been reinstalled: https://twitter.com/AdamRamsay/status/1769675142324453508
“
Council installs new slavery plaque at Edinburgh's Melville Monument
“
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-68597359
You must log in to post.
Cycling in Edinburgh Flickr group
Video embedded using Easy Video Embed plugin
posts