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East Lothian Planning Permission Issue

(10 posts)
  • Started 3 years ago by abeardwalks
  • Latest reply from Tulyar
  • This topic is not resolved

  1. abeardwalks
    Member

    Hi folks,

    I hope you're all managing okay during this peculiar time.

    My parents live out in East Lothian, on the road between Gullane and Drem.

    They are in the middle of a dispute with their neighbours. The neighbours claim the shared driveway is their property and that my parents cannot use it to manoeuvre.

    This claim forces them to reverse onto the road. The road in question is on a slight S-bend and a hidden dip. Some of you may be familiar with it, as several cyclists frequent it during the day, particularly roadies. During the harvest season, there's an additional hazard of grain lorries collecting from the nearby farms.

    While the dispute is ongoing, the neighbours have requested planning permission to erect a 2-metre high fence and gate, which would make it impossible for them to turn their car and leave safely.

    I'm asking if anyone would be willing to comment against the planning application because it creates a dangerous situation for all users of the road which could result in someone injured or, worse, killed.

    It's also worth noting that this road makes up part of a Drem-Gullane segregated cycle route that locals are currently campaigning for. If this fence were to be erected, this point on the path would be quite unsafe.

    Here's the link to the planning request: https://pa.eastlothian.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=QCGZNEGNGQI00&activeTab=summary

    Here's the junction on street view: https://goo.gl/maps/vyKU1Jxp5rrSTS7h9

    Here's a link to the campaign to create a segregated cycle path: https://www.facebook.com/dgcorepath/

    Thank you to anyone who's able to comment against the planning application. My parents and I really appreciate it.

    Stay safe, stay active.

    Sincerely,
    Andrew White

    Posted 3 years ago #
  2. Frenchy
    Member

    That's...bizarre. Good luck.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  3. pringlis
    Member

    Might be worth having your parents dig out their title deeds and talk to a solicitor if you haven't already. I did a quick search of the Registers of Scotland for you and while their plans aren't 100% accurate the title plan makes it a bit ambiguous over who owns the driveway. The deeds might help clear it up.

    https://scotlis.ros.gov.uk/property-summary/ELN5461 shows Craighead Cottage with no ownership of the driveway.
    https://scotlis.ros.gov.uk/property-summary/ELN921 shows Braeside Cottage boundary as being half way along the driveway.

    It's not clear from your post but I assume they're not proposing taking away access to where your parents garage is? It's from the point just past where the shared driveway splits? Where about is it that your parents usually turn around?

    From what I've heard comments from non-neighbours on small scale planning permissions like this don't make a huge difference - it's either allowed under planning rules or it's not. If all else fails is it possible your parents could reverse into the driveway?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  4. Morningsider
    Member

    @abeardwalks - I think your strongest approach here is to argue that the proposal breaches policy T2 in the Local Development Plan. This states that:

    New development must have no significant adverse impact on:
    *Road safety;
    *The convenience, safety and attractiveness of walking and cycling in the surrounding area;

    Creating a blind entrance/exit is clearly a road safety risk and you can argue that it would affect cyclists safety and future plans for the development of the new cycle route.

    pringlis' suggestion of checking the title deeds is also good. Even if planning permission is granted it is possible that it may not be able to go ahead as your parents have some interest in the land subject to development.

    Drop me a DM if you want to talk planning.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  5. acsimpson
    Member

    If it takes a while to track down your parent's deeds then it might be worth paying the £6 to obtain copies of the title plans from both cottages on pringlis' links above. They will hopefully tell you what the significance of the yellow and orange colourings are on the plans. Hopefully they will tell you that your parent's have a right of access over the land coloured yellow/orange.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  6. pringlis
    Member

    Google Maps aerial view isn't great but I checked Bing and Apple Maps this morning and Bing is a bit clearer. As acsimpson says I think the yellow/orange colourings are key - looking at where the orange one leads to there's a very good chance that's a protected path or right of way and they're not able to fence it off.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  7. jonty
    Member

    Yeah, the fact that the title to Craighead Cottage has no road access in the title surely suggests that the yellow shading will clearly represent a shared driveway in both titles. It looks perfectly drawn to provide a turning head, which is presumably what the dispute is about - your parents driving past 'their' wall to turn.

    I think it's quite common for parts of shared driveways to be wholly owned by a single person but with the stipulation that they have to provide access to others. Presumably not dissimilar to how adopted roads often remain in ownership of adjacent landowners, but the legalities of adoption seem to render this pretty much meaningless.

    If anything the neighbours might well have shot themselves in the foot here given that the planning officer's determination might at least informally confirm their right of access.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  8. neddie
    Member

    Aside from settling the legal matters, which would be a good thing to do in its own right, I would also try to get some remediation with the neighbours.

    After all, they say: "Don't fall out with your neighbours!"

    It would be worth finding out why the neighbours don't want your parents turning in the driveway. Is it because they are afraid their child/dog gets run over? They don't like the fumes? They don't like them looking in the window as they go past? Or are they simply being obstinate about it because of some other long standing issue?

    (I'm not accusing any party of any of these things, just saying there is bound to be an underlying reason)

    It would be much cheaper and less stressful for all if it could be settled amicably, with the backing of course of accurate plans/deeds/title.

    Can they maybe meet together and discuss with some kind of 3rd party person to act as a remediator?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  9. jonty
    Member

    Were there any updates on this, abeardwalks? I'm curious!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  10. Tulyar
    Member

    My house title extends from the middle of the back lane to the middle of the lane at the foot of a 15 ft wall at the other end of a long, thin plot

    Section D of the title (Burdens) will provide a lot of the detail, and the yellow colouring is significant. It appears in the historic Railway Land Plan books, especially where the old (turnpike) road was re-routed and the railway usually bought extra land to build a bridge. Yellow meant no absolute title for the railway company - an historic right of access or title associated with the old road, blue is the colour for the main title

    For my title, surveyed by Thomas Kyle, and from his dimensions alone (the maps being lost) I could draw-out a plan which perfectly fitted the current map. The back lane is specified as 9 feet wide, and for common or patent use by all connected properties. I own the solum under 4ft 6in of that width but cannot block the free ish and access of others over that land

    From the titles the access road in from the public road is part owned by Braeside and part owned by the owner of the strip of land from which the plot for Craighead Cottage has been split-off. Hence it is split down the centre-line where the solum for Braeside is shown. What may also be relevant is the title for the strip of land. The brown coloured bit is the access to that strip maintained/secured for the owner of this land, possibly with rights for Craighead/Braeside to get access to their boundaries. A bit odd therefore that Braeside doesn't have the rest of the lane width shown as yellow, unless someone has slipped up setting out their access rights, especially if the lane is less than say 4 metres wide, or they need access to the small outbuilding to the North

    It could be worth getting an accurate survey with a modern 'total station' instrument, I did this for the developer across the back lane, and challenged Glasgow Council's illegal use of the OS map to determine measurements relating to City Plan limits for overlooking, finding that the OS map was up to 1 metre adrift for the actual plan of the building, and the developer's plans showed the car park ramp 1 metre wider than it actually is, this stopped them sneaking in extra big oriel windows out over the lane and closer to my back gate, although they have violated the right of access from 'ground to sky' for the back lane should anyone fancy a pro bono case for rea meanus facultatis as neighbours can no longer get any HGV past the obstruction

    In a second amusing tale with Sustrans, we were 'invited' to negotiate with the owners of 2 'recent' houses built on the old station site, who thought they jointly owned parts of the strip of land across the end of their cul de sac, through which Sustrans would need to make an access to the old railway. You get a certain sense about measurements, and alignments of fences, walls etc, and so I got the area accurately surveyed, and found out that the developer of the old goods yard had 'stolen' a strip from the land not sold to them by BR .... they were instead 'squatting' on Sustrans land. You can imagine their faces, when we suggested they might need to demolish a wall or two, and rebuild their houses. Elsewhere we got a few £'000 from a developer whose wall was 30-40 cm on to Sustrans site for around 8 metres, just to square-up the ownership.

    Andrew (I think you have my e-mail) ioy looks like there is some serious land grabbing going on from the boundaries shown on the revised plan - who owns the strip of land heading North, and to the centre-line of the access? They have proposed erection of a fence on land which is not part of their property?

    Posted 3 years ago #

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