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OS Maps - past their use by date?

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  1. urchaidh
    Member

    The kids and I set out at the weekend to see how far up the Figgate/Braid/Bonnaly burn we could get. It's a pretty reasonable route, mostly off road.

    In the end we called it quits on the flanks of White Hill. We were on a path, but it was about to head steeply up and the OS map showed no indication of either the path were were on or a further path over to access road we knew was west of us. It was getting a bit late in the day and bit far from home for off-piste faffing, and Skittle levels were already running dangerously low.

    I love OS maps, I grew up with them, I subscribe to the online service and I spend way more time than I should poring over them. However, this are is clearly way out of date. If I'd looked at Strava, OSM or even Google satellite view we'd have seen our path and probably pushed on.

    Anyone know how often, if at all, OS update their mappings? A quick web search will tell you how often they re-print paper maps or regenerate their raster, but now how often they get out and update the map data itself.

    Am I a daft old sentimentalist/luddite for continuing to use these?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  2. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    That's a problem with all maps. For sure on territory I don't know I'll combine the Explorer map with a satellite view.

    I've notified the OS over the years about stuff I've found on the ground that didn't correspond with the map and their responses have led me to believe that there's something like five years between survey and the paper version.

    In general I'd say stuff marked on OS is guaranteed real, but plenty real stuff isn't marked. So it goes.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  3. gembo
    Member

    Covenater’s Grave long way into the Pentlands.

    Time we went, quite a bit of are you sure it is here? Me. Yes on OS map. Them, further on, are you sure we haven’t missed it? Me know still bit to go. Them show us , Me map Out to show them. Bit further on, where is it. me 8 dunno I am just following the map. them What 8s that gravestone like rock over there. me It is the Covenanter’s Grave.

    Compare with my mate Trev went to find it, couldn’t went home. I said, well it is a far way into the hills so you do lose the courage of your convictions but you will surely have seen it marked on the map? Trev, no I just had my phone, no map.

    I always take a paper map in a poly bag. Even when people have phones, you can lose signal, flat batteries etc.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  4. crowriver
    Member

    OS maps are the gold standard. Some stuff might be too recent to be featured, but most of the landscape outwith cities hasn't really changed that much for decades or even longer.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  5. bacam
    Member

    I think it depends which OS map you're looking at. I'm fairly certain that they do surveying pretty much constantly - I can see some very new houses near my parents, for example, but that just means that it's gotten as far as their online open maps. I wouldn't be surprised if they're missing in more curated versions until a cartographer has looked them over and tweaked them for usability, especially for new paper versions.

    I heard many years ago that the different scale maps were actually completely separate but that they were moving towards deriving them from the master maps. They've probably done that now.

    Some of the third party sites seem to be worse. For example, the maps for searching for planning applications on council websites always seem to be ancient.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  6. ejstubbs
    Member

    OS Flying Team keep mapping Britain’s changes

    The Flying Team are usually in the skies above Britain from March to early November each year, using the aircraft and high-resolution cameras to survey about a third of Britain, that’s around 80,000 km2 of imagery data and over 100,000 individual images.

    I thought I'd seen an article somewhere saying that they'd been able to take advantage of the reduced air traffic due to lockdown and travel restrictions to get more flying done. Can't find it now, though. Maybe I imagined it.

    I believe that the OS have fairly well established criteria (internally, at any rate - I don't know whether they make them public) as to what features they include on the map and what they don't. It may be that they are well aware of the path you were on, but did not deem it worth showing. Or it may be that it's not easily visible from the air: especially likely in a wooded area like Bonaly, given that their flying season more or less coincides with trees coming to leaf.

    As the linked article says, the OS does have ground-based surveyors - all 200 of them. OSM in comparison has a huge team of volunteer 'surveyors' on the ground, albeit each one will usually cover a limited range. On the flip side, this does mean that it can end up with something being included on the map because one single individual felt it was worthwhile.

    I'm not a Strava user, but my understanding is that it shows routes based on where users' GPS tracks indicate people go - which is arguably even less selective than OSM, where at least someone has to go to the trouble of adding a feature if they think it worthwhile. (I wouldn't recommend that other people follow some of my GPS tracks, especially the ones out in the hills: they can be a tad "approximate...as can be my navigation.)

    I tend to agree with crowriver: if you think OS maps are poor, you should try finding your way around wild country using the maps available in a lot of other countries. In many places if it's not a marked & recognised "trail" then as far as the map-makers are concerned it doesn't exist. And forget about useful things like indications of the terrain e.g. marshy or rocky, rocky outcrops and even individual large rocks like the OS (and Harvey's, to be fair) give you.

    An American acquantance told me how shocked she was on visiting the Lake District for the first time to find that most of the paths on the map were not waymarked on the ground. The idea of finding your way around by using a map and referring to the landscape around you, rather than following marked trails, seemed utterly alien to her.

    Actually, I can't see a lot wrong with getting just a little bit lost and finding your way by using a bit of geospatial awareness and locating yourself using whatever features are shown on the map. You don't always have to follow a path (though my missus does tend to object when I decide to head confidently off across a stretch of trackless moorland).

    Posted 3 years ago #
  7. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    if you think OS maps are poor, you should try finding your way around wild country using the maps available in a lot of other countries

    My experience of foreign contour maps of wild places;

    France, Canada: Good enough.
    Italy: Hilariously, life-threateningly bad.
    Morocco: Classified. Why are you asking for such things?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  8. urchaidh
    Member

    Strava's map features are based on OSM, which explains why they looked so similar when I subsequently checked.

    I may have come across as overly negative. I do appreciate what a fantastic resource we have in OS, that's why was worried that maybe they're not being kept up to date. Have put a fair bit of effort making sure my kids know how to use them.

    Most of the time I wouldn't be too bothered about a track on the ground that's not on the map - much better than the other way round - and it's not like we were out in the wilderness.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  9. paddyirish
    Member

    What a great thread.

    My first job on moving to Edinburgh 15 yrs ago was for the OS through a 3rd party. I worked on a project developing a new tablet for surveyors who could check out an area of map, go out to the field to investigate a number of pre-logged changes/queries and then would complete their work and check it back in to the central system, which was then to be sold digitally to councils etc. I believe at the time it was the 4th largest Oracle Database in the world, US military owning the top 3.

    I spent 2 years testing a small 2km x 2km area centred on Edinburgh castle. My favourite task was introducing Congestion Charge Zone, similar to what was introduced in London...

    Definitely moved on since I left, but I have a relationship with OS similar to what I have with the met office. I value their work, and would use it for planning, but I'd look out the window and check if it is raining or likely to before hanging my washing out...

    I think Satellite is definitely the way forward, but also how often does that get updated? Another little anecdote:- Google Maps satellite passed over my in-laws house on my wedding day (there was a marquee in the garden). That was still current close to 3 years later.

    I also know that in Dalgety Bay, a few years later, the street view had my first car in the picture at least a couple of years after we sold it.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  10. boothym
    Member

    @urchaidh can you posts a screenshot of what OS shows in that area? (to compare to OSM)

    @ejstubbs Strava relies on data from OSM for displaying its basemap (via Mapxbox) and also the routing.

    However there is a heatmap which it produces - OSM mappers are allowed to use this to add missing paths. Of course it's only worth mapping the "hot" paths and not a single GPS track. You do need to be logged in to see it in high res though: https://www.strava.com/heatmap#16.74/-3.26016/55.89224/hot/all

    And yes while OS may have consistently high standards across the board, you can get more detailed areas in OSM depending on the volunteers. The paths at White Hill have been visible on satellite imagery and mapped in OSM for years but this well used path linking to the southeast seems to be missing from OS.

    Last year the Ramblers had a pilot project in the west and found lots of missing paths. Will be interesting to see how many they find when it's rolled out the nationally. https://www.ramblers.org.uk/mappingscotlandspaths

    Posted 3 years ago #
  11. minus six
    Member

    all the modern os map sheets have a deliberate mistake don't they, so they can identify copy theft

    Posted 3 years ago #
  12. urchaidh
    Member

    Posted 3 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    From link

    In West Dunbartonshire alone, data found in the trial suggests there is a potential path network of more than 300 miles, more than double the length currently shown on Ordnance Survey leisure maps.

    The ‘hidden paths’ found during the trial include some popular routes, like the core path up Duncolm Hill - which at 401 metres is the highest point in West Dunbartonshire and the Kilpatrick Hills.

    Presumably all/most on OSM?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    By contrast, on rare occasions, I’ve tried to find paths on (relatively) recent OS maps and not been able to find them on the ground.

    Some paths just stop getting walkers, perhaps because there is a better route or new fence...

    Posted 3 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    Posted 3 years ago #
  16. ejstubbs
    Member

    @bax: all the modern os map sheets have a deliberate mistake don't they, so they can identify copy theft

    As does the A-Z street map company (if they're still going, and haven't been driven out of business by Google Maps), and indeed Google Maps, reputedly at any rate (see Argleton). Generically known as copyright traps, more specifically (depending on the form used) as trap streets and phantom settlements or paper towns.

    Publishers of other types of reference works - such as dictionaries and encyclopaedias - also use copyright traps. In textual form they are known rather delightfully as mountweazels after Lillian Virginia Mountweazel, a woman "famous for being fake", an entry under that name having been inserted in to the 1975 edition of the New Columbia Encyclopedia as a copyright trap

    Posted 3 years ago #
  17. southsider
    Member

    I believe - but have no sources to hand:

    OS get fed data from government and council planning and highways departments, roughly at the stage when buildings and roads are signed off as having been built - and this data goes straight into their MasterMap (this is why new housing estates and roads make it onto OS maps fairly quickly).

    50k and 25k raster maps are updated twice a year, with mapping providers including their OS Maps service, Anquet, Viewranger etc pushing the updates out on their own timescales, and paper maps being reprinted every 10 years and sometimes more frequently. The updates are triggered by changes in MasterMap and each tile is updated manually by a cartographer - including things like moving fencelines around to make the gaps between them visible, deleting tiny sheds, positioning text labels etc.

    Mastermap itself and other large scale maps are really expensive to licence from OS so often councils use cheaper, older maps as base maps.

    OS path data seems to be mostly very historic. I don't think they receive updated details of paths, not even Core Paths, from councils, and councils vary dramatically in what paths they have a record of. OS certainly don't label Core Paths on 50k and 25k maps. I don't know what OS criteria are for adding or deleting a path that they have seen in their air survey or been told about by a member of the public, but this certainly does not appear very systematic - e.g. the very straight poled right of way from Garvald to Crosswood by the Covenanters Grave was shown on the 50k map a few years ago (but not on the 25k map), but is no longer included in either, fair enough as there is no visible path on the ground. But the Roslin-Shawfair railway path is still a railway on the 50k map between Loanhead and Shawfair, but only from Gilmerton to Shawfair on the 25k map, despite tracks having been lifted many years ago!

    In general in and around Edinburgh, OSM is your best friend for what paths exist on the ground, and it's relatively easy to fix whenever it's wrong. In other parts of Scotland a combination of OS, OSM, Strava Heatmap and air photos is sometimes required to gain confidence in the existence or otherwise of a path.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  18. boothym
    Member

    @urchaidh thanks, just wondered what zoom level you were at. Zooming closer there is a faint "Path" line https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/55.89367,-3.25881,17 but not much else, unlike in OSM.

    @chdot Ramblers haven't shared the "hidden paths" from their west pilot, but have said they'll make all the paths from the main project publicly available. OSM of course has plenty of paths in that area.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  19. gembo
    Member

    @urchaidh if you are a daft old sentimentalist or also if you are not, your antidote is to read the memoir Motherwell by Deborah Orr. She was born in 1962, bit older than me but I can get all her references. She mentions a Gas Scheme and lived in a wooden house. The closest wooden prefabs to Balerno are in Kirknewton. Amazing the longevity creosote brings and what was a luxury in the schemes of things a front door a back door and front and rear gardens. As the timber overhangs the brick work at the bottom she used to observe cabbage whites pupating in the gap. This was in the Timbers Scheme. From the Timbers scheme it was countryside all the way to the horizon save for a couple of motorways, she says.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  20. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    It was only my travels in 2019 that had me realise the reality of the Motherwell-Hamilton-Wishaw etc conurbation. I knew them from the map but I hadn't realised how they related to the valley of the Clyde or each other.

    There is no real substitute for going to the place.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  21. gembo
    Member

    @IWrats I have been to the place. There would have to be very specific reasons to return. Deborah Orr describes Motherwell as being on the lip of the Clyde Valley. It is nicer, that valley, east of said connurbations

    Btw you have a PM re talk talk

    Posted 3 years ago #
  22. urchaidh
    Member

    @gembo Thanks for the tip, I've read it. I grew up in Wishaw with parents both from Motherwell, some of my dad's family lived down the hill from her scheme. Being not much younger than the author so much of it was resonant and brought the memories, good and bad, flooding back.

    It is an contradictory place. Densely urban and heavily industrialised and yet right on the edge of some wild countryside. As a kid we would range out Lanark, Carnwath, Forth (no I don't know why either), down into the Clyde Valley and the Falls of Clyde.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  23. cb
    Member

    The OSM mapping of paths on White Hill is a bit sketchy.

    E.g. the path by the Dean Burn is shown crossing it several times (it doesn't). And there a lot of errors further up.

    That path and the scrambly little route up the hill east from the burn is guaranteed one of the most picturesque spots within a mile of the city's edge. But don't tell anyone; let the hoards go towards Torduff and Bonaly Reservoir as they all seem to.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  24. ejstubbs
    Member

    @boothym: The difference is that the link you provided uses the "Standard" map layer, whereas urchaidh's snapshot is of the 1:25k zoom level of the "OS Leisure Maps" (i.e. the paper maps) layer. There are two further zoom levels in the standard maps layer compared to the leisure maps layer but the app doesn't zoom in from one layer to the other: you have to explicitly select the layer you wish to view. And although you can zoom in closer on the standard layer, it doesn't show some of the features that are on the leisure maps layer at lower zoom levels.

    It's clear that the OS selects different things to include in the different layers, and even at different scales in the same layer. This applies even within features of the same type. For example: on the 1:25k map there is a 174m spot height at the Fairmilehead crossroads. If you zoom out to the 1:50k map that spot heiught isn't shown, but there is a 183m spot height half way along Oxgangs Road (presumably because that's the highest point) which isn't on the 1:25k map. AFAICT the standard layer doesn't include spot heights at all, just contours (which are virtually invisible within built-up areas).

    It's unclear what criteria the OS uses to include or omit various features. I suspect it's as much to do with keeping the map readable as it is hard and fast rules based on feature type, significance or 'importance'. In that respect cartography is as much an art as it is a science (as Harry Beck would no doubt have agreed).

    I agree with southsider that an update to their 1:25k and 1:50k representations of the remains of the Edinburgh, Loanhead and Roslin railway north of Loanhead is well overdue. (You'd think they'd have noticed the lack of a railway when they started including details of what's being built at Shawfair.)

    Posted 3 years ago #
  25. gembo
    Member

    @urchaidh, I know you are from Wishie. I did not know your parents were from Motherwell though.

    Forth now has a Ye Olde Fashioned Sweetie Shop

    Posted 3 years ago #
  26. bacam
    Member

    Oh, I forgot about the Council atlas which has some fairly detailed maps, lots of council data, and even some aerial photography. It looks like the main maps are based on fairly recent Ordnance Survey. The paths around White Hill are still odd: quite different at different zoom levels.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  27. ejstubbs
    Member

    The council atlas uses Esri's GIS products (it actually says so at the lower left of the web page) which includes OS data amongst the options selectable via the "four tiles" at the upper right of the web page. There's also Defra's Magic Map which is[ based solely on the OS data - and covers the whole of the UK, unlike the council atlas. Unlike the OS' app the Magic Map does zoom in from the OS 1:25k leisure map format to the "standard" format).

    I find the Defra Magic Map handy for finding things like SSSIs, SPAs, RAMSAR sites, AONBs and local and national nature reserves. The council atlas does show these as well but only for the area in and around Edinburgh.

    EDIT: I've just noticed that the council atlas also has historical mapping. A handy alternative to the NLS maps web app - although it doesn't have the NLS' georeferenced or side-by-side options.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  28. urchaidh
    Member

    That Magic map is magic. Thanks for the link, hadn't seen that before.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  29. minus six
    Member

    . changed my mind

    Posted 3 years ago #
  30. chrisfl
    Member

    > Presumably all/most on OSM?

    Yes - certainly all the ones we know about.

    In the early days of OSM, we tried to get Ramblers interested and they had a we have the OS why would we ever need to look elsewhere.

    But recently through "forgotten paths" project to make sure that all rights of way are mapped on OS before a 2026 deadline in England after which they will be lost forever as a right of way. They have discovered that OSM generally does have most of these.

    It's also interesting that the National Trust in England are using OSM to manage there "path" assets rather than OS as they are much better represented on OSM and much easier to fix as needed.

    In Scotland right to roam means there is no statutory need to map paths, so they have discovered that there are loads of paths not on the beloved OS maps and therefore are looking to other sources including OSM and loads of others. This is great, because OSM gets better the more people use it, report problems and fix problems.

    My lesson through all this is that I was inspired by empty map and the idea of creating and open data map to rival OS. Most people need to have something tangible they can use before they get involved.

    Posted 3 years ago #

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