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Xyz spaceframe reumbent trike

(79 posts)
  • Started 6 months ago by steveo
  • Latest reply from steveo
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  1. steveo
    Member

    Following on from the thread about a properly ugly bike seen on the WOL we discovered there is a fleet of them based on a open source design. Only the recumbent is fully planned out the cargo bikes are a commercial venture to fund the programme. They can be bought for a reasonable price, a workshop is ran in Copenhagen or they're happy for one to reverse engineer from photos.

    The trike has a full bill of materials and detailed plans though so maybe a good place to start before some reverse engineering.

    I have priced up the aluminium tubes and fixings, the frame comes to about £150 before labour. Which in this case would be free. Probably the same again for bike parts.

    Not sure on the front wheels, think they could be expensive.

    FRONT WHEELS 24”x1.75 equipped with a reinforced axle (M12, 8.8) for one-sided attachment, prefarably: mirrored drum brakes or disc brakes and a double break lever for synchronous braking of both front wheels

    The rear they spec a nexus hub but I've seen derailers mounted so I think unless a cheap internal geared hub falls in my lap that will be the approach.

    Blurb about the project is here
    http://www.n55.dk/MANUALS/SPACEFRAMEVEHICLES/spaceframevehicles.html

    And the plans are here http://www.n55.dk/MANUALS/SPACEFRAMEVEHICLES/DIY.pdf

    Posted 6 months ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    This sounds like a great project, well worth pursuing!

    I’m sure CCEers could be crowdsourced for parts.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    Double levers often used on tandems -

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233870074563

    I’ve seen cheaper ones on ebay before.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  4. neddie
    Member

    Think I might use some of that Ally box section stuff for my bike powered genny

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=20502

    I like the step-through concept on the cargo bike. I think the seat could do with more up/down travel though. I wonder how that could be achieved? Something like a Helios tandem rear telescopic seat post maybe?

    Posted 6 months ago #
  5. steveo
    Member

    Cheers chdot, I wasn't sure about that or independent brakes for each side for stunts :)

    Neddie cheapest place I found for the aluminium bar was ebay, even at these volumes it's still too small beer for the big fabs and the smaller ones have a pretty big mark up.

    One of the nice things about this design is that the raw materials will can be largely reused so even if I don't like the low rider it's not the end of the world

    Posted 6 months ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    If the plan is to use a doubler to run to brakes on both front wheels every braking might turn into a stunt!

    Or maybe getting them balanced will be simple.

    No idea!

    Posted 6 months ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    Always fancied something like this!

    https://oldbike.wordpress.com/1936-approx-kendrick-tws-tricycle/

    NOTE: both brakes are on the back wheel.

    No idea if that is legal now.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  8. LaidBack
    Member

    @steveo Interesting. An XYZ model is with Sustrans as demo/loan cargotrike. MJ in charge of their cargo bike library liked as could do the Meccano approach to reformatting for loads. Steering also better but of course tracking can be problem if not set right (A Babboe trike in at BW had worn out front tyres as tracking not set right by manufacturer.)

    Braking is easier to balance with SA drum brakes. As less effective any imbalance less likely to overturn trike (!) Used on our shop Nihola and ICE trike demos.

    With cargobikes they are always overloaded. Trikes have to soak up more potholes of course. I'd go for Big Ben 60mm wide tyres.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  9. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Worth noting that the XYZ trike design necessarily uses vertical kingpins, which will accentuate brake-steer, bump-steer and poor tracking, although the effects will be magnified at high(er) speeds, at which these designs are definitely not aimed.

    Laterally inclined kingpins intersecting the tyre contact patch ("centrepoint" steering, for zero scrub radius) would be better; kingpins aligned slightly outside the contact patch (negative scrub) generates a torque that counteracts brake-steer. There is also no need for a typical bike head angle on a trike's kingpins, but a very small amount of caster, say 1 deg (at right angles to the plane of lateral inclination) lends some stability by generating the self-centring effect of trail.

    If the braking on the trike is any good, it will bury the chainrings in the tarmac at every opportunity because the front axle position relative to the seat results in the centre of gravity positioned too far forward.

    The cargo bike design is quite nice, though.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  10. steveo
    Member

    So @arellcat you reckon this particular model isn't a goer? Now you mention the scrub patch and head angles I remember reading about that years (and years ago) when I first looked at making a trike but my inability to weld and having nowhere to store it canned the idea.

    I've been looking at pictures and using some of the information in the technical drawings I should be able to make a cargo bike. It would just have been easier to work from plans the first time on the other hand I need a poor quality recumbent like I need more kids.

    @laidback it was the sustrans one that sent me off down this rabbit hole. Wonder if I can engineer an excuse to borrow it for the weekend and have at it with the calipers.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    “excuse to borrow it for the weekend and have at it with the callipers”

    Wanting to make one is a perfectly legitimate reason!

    Posted 6 months ago #
  12. LaidBack
    Member

    @steveo can look at shop's brand new Nihola which shows you how commercial manufacturer handles it.
    Like the XYZ the design was done so it could have handlebars rather than the articulated type of cargo box trike you see with Christiania or cheaper Babboe models. Have someone selling a Christiania cargo trike btw if anyone is interested. 600 quid maybe ono.

    As Arellcat says the angled kingpins do make decent trikes ride nicely without what I would call trolley effect. Again very welcome to take our Adventure non electric recumbent model to see how it rides.

    The original idea of reformatting cargo bikes is a good one. Almost every off the shelf model needs modified for commercial use. Carrying children is easy and 95% of market maybe. Carrying stuff is much more unpredictable. @chdot favours his 8freight as it can have longer load behind. Light and no need for motor. Dutch style trikes and bikes need a long bucket to allow stuff to poke out forward and holes in box to get old inner tubes round.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  13. steveo
    Member

    Thanks @laidback I will take you up on that once things start to reopen.

    @chdot the cargo bike library is currently closed for new applicants until May, I may or may not have started building by then.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  14. steveo
    Member

    Seen a suggestion for using track rods from go karts to help with the scrub and stuff.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  15. LaidBack
    Member

    @steveo - good cheaper source probably. Rose joints wear out on these but can be got off web. Box on such items has to be narrower. A commercial recumbent trike is about 80cm wide. A cargo trike is maybe 90cm + wide so wheels can turn alongside box. Turn steering full lock to squeeze through door frame at shop.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  16. wingpig
    Member

    The storage of even a trailer has always been the sticking point on my cargo capabilities ever since I sold my old trailer to Snowy years ago because it would only fit through the shed door collapsed, sideways and with the wheels off, but if square-section aluminium tubing is considered sturdy enough for bike cargo I'm sure it could be persuaded to form a collapsing trailer which squidges up to not much more than normal-bike width. Then again, the time it would take me to make anything means I'll probably just end up buying something like the knock-off Burleigh shopping-trolley-style trailer things I've seen someone using locally.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  17. LaidBack
    Member

    @Wingpig - LB Shop has Carry Freedom trailers and that's huge but breaks down very quickly. Nick in Glasgow's old box section design still around and made in thousands in Taiwan - sure people could make a copy but not everyone has the skills / desire.

    This cargo trike available now for £450. Not in shop as too big but maybe usueful for someone getting into using. A 7 speed cargo trike 6 mile run can give you same exercise as 12 miles on a road bike so lots of good things about non electric!
    Customer's cargo trike for sale

    Posted 6 months ago #
  18. crowriver
    Member

    Can certainly recommend the Carry Freedom trailer. I have a Y Frame Small and it stows very compact for storage. Nick also has an open source trailer design the Bamboo Trailer. I made one of these years ago from wood and still have it - that's the big trailer.

    Would love a cargo trike but nowhere to store it (I have a lockup but it's full of bikes and camping gear!). Anyway the Pashley Pronto carries almost anything, if I need to shift something slightly bigger/bulkier I have a trailer hitch attached. Or just pay to get it delivered!

    Posted 6 months ago #
  19. steveo
    Member

    Does anyone know where to get the single sided hubs used in trikes? I'm leaning towards going with the cargo bike and just kind of working it out instead of doing the trike first. Probably depends if these hubs are too expensive for a prototype project.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  20. wingpig
    Member

    "wheelchair hub" seems a more successful search term than "bike trailer single-sided hub"... Presumably recumbent and trailer manufacturers have secret places they buy them from.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  21. LaidBack
    Member

    We get ours from ICE in Falmouth.
    They offer SA 90mm ones with left and right options. I may have a couple of used disc brake ones in basement 36h but of course not as tough as SA ones. That said small wheels with 36h are inherently strong.
    Have extra 10mm axles. Basically we end up with some extra parts from upgrades.

    New 20" front wheelset from ICE is £250 (at least) as this is the 1% of bike market and 'mirrored' wheels with axles will not be found at the Bike Station etc. Nihola also use SA Drums although 70mm. The disc brake options on cargo bikes tend to be hydraulic so you can balance onto one lever.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  22. steveo
    Member

    Yeah @laidback I wasn't expecting them to be cheap tbh but at £250 I'm thinking it's a bit of a budget buster.

    I don't think the bike would be any more difficult just not having all the dimensions.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  23. crowriver
    Member

    When I built the Bamboo Trailer just used BMX wheels and tyres. Can't remember what I used as an axle: a coach bolt of appropriate diameter each side I think! Will check.

    No brakes on a trailer of course so less complex than a trike or bike.

    EDIT: Actually I think it was just the axles that came with wheels (two front ones), and bolted through a bit of plate steel in an improvised dropout.

    P.S.:- Schematics, parts list and instructions can be found here: https://carryfreedom.com/bamboo-trailer/

    Posted 6 months ago #
  24. nobrakes
    Member

    You can get ICE hubs from Icletta in the EU for €49.00. Plus import duty etc now of course. Dunno if Icletta are still shipping to the UK but I’ve bought from them several times before.

    https://shop.icletta.com/en/wheels-parts/vorderradnabe-ice-fur-scheibenbremse-is-36-loch-einseitig-schwarz.html

    Posted 6 months ago #
  25. steveo
    Member

    Cheers @nobrakes that's quite reasonable shame about brexit!

    @crowriver did those hubs hold up okay like that?

    Posted 6 months ago #
  26. MediumDave
    Member

    Maybe Cannondale Lefty hubs (or compatibles) would do you? Single sided from the off and seem readily available at around the £45 mark.

    I'm assuming that if these hubs will stand up to MTBing they should be fine for a cargo bike. You may have to acquire/make extra proprietary parts to actually mount the hub to the bike. The Lefty has the axle as part of the fork rather than the hub. Various adapters for the Lefty exist so you might be able to make something from those.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  27. wingpig
    Member

    "You may have to acquire/make extra proprietary parts to actually mount the hub to the bike"

    Given that I've rattled through various bits of steel or aluminium plate when they've only been pretending to be rack brackets or light clamps I'd probably look at using bits of actual fork or spare dropouts for bolting axles to.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  28. LaidBack
    Member

    Got these. One axle needs replaced along with bearing - consumable on such things. Bike Works can do. I have loads of axles.

    ICE Sprint trike - front wheel 36h hubs

    Posted 6 months ago #
  29. crowriver
    Member

    @steveo, put it this way I have moved some ridiculous loads on the trailer. BMX wheels are pretty strong. These were just cheap unbranded ones with bolt style solid axles. 20" wheels in general are strong, especially with more than 28 spokes. 26" wheels also pretty darn strong if you want something bigger. I imagine some basic bolt on axle MTB wheels would do the job.

    I should probably clarify that the trailer wheels are sitting in a home made "dropout" on either side of the wheel. It's just an L section piece of steel with a notch cut out of it, and some holes drilled for screws to go into the wood. From memory the steel plate is about 3mm thick. I daresay box section or L section aluminium could be used instead, maybe not as strong though obviously lighter.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  30. crowriver
    Member

    Out of idle curiosity I searched for BMX front wheels. You can pick up a new wheel, 14mm solid axle, 48 spokes for £33. Obviously they need a "dropout" on either side but that's two entire wheels for less than £70. Rim brake only. For disc hubs you might need to lace a suitable rim to 36 hole MTB front hub.

    Posted 6 months ago #

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