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Council elections 2022

(520 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by Stickman
  • Latest reply from chdot
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  1. jonty
    Member

    Yes - you can get very deep into how STV works and is implemented in Scotland, but fundamentally not numbering some candidates means that at some point you (might be) throwing your ballot paper on the floor and letting everyone else's votes decide it. If you genuinely don't mind who gets in at that point then fine, but they don't just give up if enough people don't vote. The seat will get awarded to someone no matter how many rounds it takes, and by that point there might actually be very few people left who've actually expressed enough preferences to be counted.

    So if you hate the tories but would prefer even them to fascists or bigots standing in your ward, then I'm afraid you'll have to get over yourself and give them a number at some point.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. jonty
    Member

    In a close contest, transfers from eliminated candidates might mean the difference between, say, a Lib Dem or a Green being elected. So even if you (hypothetically) put the Lib Dem last, then they might benefit from your fractional vote at the expense of the Green, if enough others put the Lib Dem second from last, for example.

    @crowriver: I'm not sure you understand how STV works. The clue is in the name single transferrable vote. You have one vote which goes to one candidate in each round. If you rank the Green above the Lib Dem, for as long as the Green is in the contest, they get your whole vote and the the Lib Dem will never get your vote or any part of it. A vote for (say) Green candidate 1 does exactly as much good for the Green candidate as a vote for (say) Greens 1, Labour 2, Lib Dems 3, Tories 4 etc etc.

    The only time fractional votes sometimes come in are when one of your preferred candidates have won. You then transfer the 'surplus' of your vote - that is, the remainder of your vote that wasn't 'required' to get them elected - to your remaining less preferred candidates. This will never ever hurt your more preferred candidates as they will have already won their seat. It will only ever hurt candidates you prefer even less.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. crowriver
    Member

    @jonty, I'm not sure you understand it actually.

    Say, by some quirk of fate I give my first preference to the Monster Raving Loony Party candidate. Screaming Lord Sutch is eliminated in the first round, so my second preference is transferred to my second choice, the Antidisestablishmentarianism Party candidate. Alas Alan Moore is eliminated in the second round, so my third preference goes to the Pinstriped Unicorn candidate. John Cleese is tragically eliminated in the third round. I wasn't prepared to vote for the Union Of British Fascists candidate, so my vote as you put it, falls to the floor at this point. Luckily only 523 votes were cast for Oswald Moseley so he is eliminated in the fourth round. And I end up with SNP, Labour and Tory councillors none of whom I voted for, but also none of whom I helped to elect.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. Frenchy
    Member

    Screaming Lord Sutch is eliminated in the first round, so my second preference (or rather a fraction of it) is transferred to my second choice

    No—if your first choice is eliminated in the first round your full vote is transferred to your second choice candidate.

    And I end up with SNP, Labour and Tory councillors none of whom I voted for, but also none of whom I helped to elect.

    If by the time we got to this stage there was only one seat left to be decided, and you had any preference for which candidate filled it, you should keep numbering your list.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. crowriver
    Member

    "and you had any preference for which candidate filled it"

    Therein lies the crux. What if you prefer not to vote for certain candidates or parties at all? Rather than engaging in the "least worst option" shimmy?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. Frenchy
    Member

    Therein lies the crux. What if you prefer not to vote for certain candidates or parties at all?

    Then don't.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. jonty
    Member

    Yes - if you have a preference, express it and if not, don't. If it comes down to it, I'd rather anyone got in than the proverbial fascist, so I'll vote that way. There's no point being precious about the fact that in extreme circumstances my vote might appear on a spreadsheet under "Seventh Preference" against a candidate I don't particularly like - nobody is going to look at it except the curator of Ballot Box Scotland and I'm quite content with that if it keeps the fash out.

    @crowriver - I'm not sure how your example proves my understanding wrong? It seems to rely on the assumption that the fascist will just not win very many votes. If it really did come down to the fascist and any of the mainstream parties for the last seat, you'd essentially be abstaining and giving up your chance to vote *against* the fascist.

    I appreciate that it's rarely so extreme and you might genuinely feel that most parties are "all the same." Totally fine - just don't be deluded that a first preference somehow counts more if there's no other preferences below it.

    On a related note, I'm pretty sure that expressing a bottom preference is essentially equivalent to leaving none, as it can only come down to a two horse race and your vote would always be given to (worst case) your second last preference. It certainly can't make things any worse.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

  9. toomanybikes
    Member

    I personally can't imagine ever really thinking you don't care who gets elected if all of your "preferences" are gone.

    It's basically abstaining otherwise. Which has never been an effective strategy.

    If the Scottish Family Party are on the ballot, then there'll be N-1 parties with numbers next to them every time.

    Lib Dem's cycling record and manifesto are both bad but still clearly better in my eyes to "all about the cars" Tories. Don't see why I'd choose a toss up between having "bad" and "even worse" when I could be the swinging vote to only have "bad".

    Not using all the preferences also creates an incentive for parties to outflank each other as they vie for the extreme end of the vote if moderate people (or people from the other end) are unwilling to engage.

    ((the "principled" Melenchon voters who stay at home for round 2 will be just as responsible for the falling apart of the EU as Le Pen voters if she wins. Both had equal ability to stop it. [at best you could argue half as responsible, which is still bad]))

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. jonty
    Member

    Yeah - I take the apparently unpopular position that actively abstaining completely in elections is a a valid decision and that elections are not the be-all and end-all of democracy, especially in FPTP safe seats or similar. But if you're being given the opportunity to explicitly define your preferences to the last candidate, I don't understand why you would only take half of it.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. crowriver
    Member

    If we had STV voting system for Holyrood or Westminster, then I'd see more point in exhausting preferences.

    For example, Lib Dems could be preferable over Tories in a national election on a number of issues, including legalising weed. On a local Edinburgh level though, I'm not seeing much difference except in the style of messaging. As for Labour, the party used to be champions of public ownership, public transport and in recent decades, active travel. Now that seems to have changed to the point where it's not clear what, if any policies they actually stand for on the local level.

    I'm just not going along with the illusion of choice if it's the equivalent of choosing between Ariel, Bold, Daz or supermarket own brand washing powder. Comforting yourself with the thought that your vote "counts" in that way does nothing except legitimise parties who seem to be doing their utmost to be near indistinguishable in terms of policies.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. slowcoach
    Member

    “not seeing much difference”? Spokes do: “Our conclusion…
    Tops – Green
    Good – Labour & SNP
    Medium – LibDem
    Disappointing – Conservative”

    More details on Edinburgh Labour’s policies in their manifesto

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. toomanybikes
    Member

    If this were true, which I don't think it is at all

    I'm not seeing much difference except in the style of messaging.

    The frothing anti-cycling pro-car quotes in every EEN article (and a fair few headlines) from the Tory transport spokesperson wouldn't exist if they had far fewer seats.

    elections are not the be-all and end-all of democracy

    They're literally the definition of democracy.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. jonty
    Member

    They're literally the definition of democracy.

    Even Russia has elections. The mark of a true democracy is about what happens in between.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. Yodhrin
    Member

    Also: parliamentary/political elections aren't the only kind of democracy. Union elections. Strikes. Protests. Employee-owned businesses. Referendums. Community organisations.

    A "democracy" in which only the party-political election cycle matters is an elective dictatorship.

    That said, personally I only consider abstention to be justifiable in the most foregone of conclusions(super-safe FPTP seat, for example), or as an intentional organised strategy to force concessions from a party that is failing to represent you and creating an alternative isn't realistic(such as with leftists and the Democratic party in the USA). In an STV proportional election? I don't find it all that rational. It's certainly easier to let normal party-political cynicism take over and declare "hang 'em all", but on the level of local elections even if you don't see any distinction between some or all the parties - I'd argue that's unlikely, but technically possible depending what issues you care about - there could well be significant distinction between the individual candidates, and if you utilise the system fully your vote will matter.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. toomanybikes
    Member

    Russia has fraudulent elections, they don't count just because they call them that themselves. China has unions,they're definitely not a necessary or sufficient part of a functional democracy. The dictionary definition of a democracy is having free elections. Yes other things can lead to more efficient democracies (unions are the greyest of things you could argue for), but without functional elections, it literally can't be a democracy.

    And even in your American example, the high non voting rate in 2016 because "both candidates were the same" went down really well didn't it? American politics and democracy is in great shape now...

    Tried to find any example of high abstention rates leading to productive change. Found some theoretical concepts such as the no-show paradox or quorum elections, neither of which could be predictably relevant in STV elections.

    Would love any evidence abstaining has ever achieved more than comforting the potential voter from having to hold their nose.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. crowriver
    Member

    @toomanybikes, I don't think the UK can really get on its high horse about electoral integrity, or democracy, frankly.

    @slowcoach, that Labour manifesto sounds nice, but if they're so committed to Net Zero, active travel, etc. why are they conducting high profile campaigns against the Workplace Parking Levy? Similar disconnect between stated aims and actions on the ground as...er...the Lib Dems gas mask brigades?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. acsimpson
    Member

    Democracy in the UK has sold out to the highest bidder. The EU referendum was the prime example of us no longer holding free and fair elections. One side lied from start to finish and yet were still allowed to win. Given that to win an election you need to own or be friends with at least a few national media titles there is nothing "free" about our elections.

    We do have an amount of choice at the ballot box but what we expeience is more a capitalist society than a democracy.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. Rosie
    Member

    The Labour leaflet I've received deals with Holyrood and Westminster policy, and nothing local at all.

    Tax on gas and oil companies to reduce energy bills
    Rebate on energy bills
    Fuel Costs Payments
    Rebate on water changes
    Half price rail fares and capped bus tickets

    It's all about "sending the message" to the PM & FM. Worrabout the bins/potholes/libraries/WPL/active travel? Things that the Council can do something about?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. toomanybikes
    Member

    Comparing the imperfections in the UK's democracy with Russia's is absurdism you'd normally expect from Russia Today propaganda. For Russia, there's clear as day video evidence of shoving illegal votes into ballot boxes and statistical evidence is overwhelming for a fraudulent outcome. The UK's problems don't remotely compare because one side lied in an election. (lies everyone called out at the time without being put in jail or poisoned).

    There's an oceanic gulf between "the efficiency of our democracy could and should be improved" and "we no longer have a functional democracy that we can compare favourably (from our high horse) with Russia or China"

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. crowriver
    Member

    @toomanybikes, you're the one making the comparison. If that's absurd so be it.

    If the UK is a shining beacon of democracy, here are some questions. How do we elect our head of state? When do we vote for members of the House of Lords? How are postal votes verified in elections?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. steveo
    Member

    How do we elect our head of state?

    irrelevant. many countries have a ceremonial head of state

    When do we vote for members of the House of Lords?

    irrelevant. a second elected house is not required for a functional democracy.

    Neither of those things are an advantage to functional democracy. In fact looking at the USA those are serious hinderances to a functional democracy.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  23. crowriver
    Member

    "irrelevant"

    Oookaaay....

    Can you point me to a link where I can find a copy of the constitution of the UK?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    Lothian Tory MSP Miles Briggs said he feared the SNP and Labour, backed by the Greens, were determined to push the changes through anyway.

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/health/edinburgh-tories-claim-controlled-parking-zones-to-be-pushed-through-despite-residents-objections-3664682

    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. steveo
    Member

    Can you point me to a link where I can find a copy of the constitution of the UK?

    Why? Do you think that's helped in Russia? How about in the US?

    I'll freely admit that the style of democracy practiced by the UK isn't great, its barely functional, but adding the the things from your terse list will not suddenly make it better. Root and branch reform of the voting system, lobbying rules, actual consequences for lying to voters the list is bloody endless before we even get to a constitution or republics, these thing exist in other countries just as morally bankrupt as the UK and don't in countries with a much better ledger than it.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

  27. SRD
    Moderator

    "Can you point me to a link where I can find a copy of the constitution of the UK?

    Why? Do you think that's helped in Russia? How about in the US?"

    I'm with Steveo here. A 'written constitution' might change some things but it is not the panacea that some seem to think.

    Even countries with single document 'constitutions' have other constitutional material - amendments, conventions etc

    Posted 2 years ago #
  28. crowriver
    Member

    This is all too much like British exceptionalism.

    It's apparently "irrelevant" that we still have aristocrats sitting in the House of Lords simply due to their ancestors being gifted title and land by royalty centuries ago. Also that the Church of England appoints Bishops to the House of Lords. Also that all other Lords are appointees of the government (albeit with a gentleman's agreement to allow opposition parties to also nominate their own Lords).

    Also apparently "irrelevant" that the apex of aristocracy, the royal family, sits atop the parliamentary system while still owning huge wealth and land.

    Finally it's apparently not a problem that there is no written constitution, despite the fact that we're just about the only so-called democracy not to have one. Instead we have a piecemeal hodge-lodge of legislation, coupled with gentlemen's agreements or "conventions" which the current PM demonstrated recently his government was willing to ignore when it suited its ends.

    Without a written constitution, there's nothing stopping a party with a majority at Westminster from repealing the Human Rights Act, or the Scotland Act, etc.

    As for the US, whatever your opinion of politics over there, under the federal system individual states, and also cities and counties, have far-ranging powers and hold public votes on a range of issues. The UK in comparison is a highly centralised unitary state, with a somewhat eccentric hodge-lodge of devolution, with powers very much In the gift of the UK government. Our local authorities are similarly relatively powerless, deliberately made so by successive governments.

    So as I said, the UK is not really in a position to get on its high horse about democracy. Indeed, the British state operates more like an ancient oligarchy that has begrudgingly made concessions to democracy in order to protect its privileges and position.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  29. SRD
    Moderator

    "Without a written constitution, there's nothing stopping a party with a majority at Westminster from repealing the Human Rights Act, or the Scotland Act, etc."

    I am not confident that a written constitution would make the slightest bit of difference to a government that was determined to make such changes.

    It might codify how such changes can be made. or it might not. constitutions are often messier than you might think.

    Preventing Westminster from revoking the scotland act would require more than 'a written constitution'. it would require a written constitution that clearly laid out powers and constraints on power. Can't see that any previous Westminster government would have agreed to that.

    *I am analysing what we have; not what I wish we had*

    Posted 2 years ago #
  30. steveo
    Member

    And if a UK constitution was written like the US one odds are we'd not have a Scotland act since it would need cross party support of what 3/4 of the commons. Much the same reason the second ammendment and all of the suffering that brings is still on the books. Or we could have a Russian one that is so fluid the dictator can rewrite it at will (president was only meant to sit for two terms but Putin just changed it) and is as meaningless as the UKs agreements and conventions.

    I'm sure there are more sane middle grounds but with an educated constitutancy and a voting system not so completely polarised it shouldn't be necessary. Thus I'd say there are better more immediate things to go after. Like Root and branch reform of the voting system, lobbying rules, actual consequences for lying to voters....

    Posted 2 years ago #

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