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not resolvedI want to go to Ullapool by public transport with my bike at the end of June. Would rather not cycle from Garve. Citylink says:
We can carry bicycles on our services in the luggage hold, however this will need to be covered by a bike bag or box. Unfortunately there is no way to pre book this in advance. This would be down to availability of space on the day.
Never travelled this way myself, but seems that bike covers are now provided free of charge, See:
https://www.citylink.co.uk/press-releases/bike-lift-for-cyclists-in-the-highlands/
Although, experience of multi-modal travel in Scotland has taught me to expect drivers/conductors/station staff to know nothing about such schemes.
See homework notes at the end - 961 was operated by DM coaches in livery, and also their own additional service on same route. Scottish Citylink MD was Simone Smith, press also MSP's to get reservation system running
This detail has been quietly promoted for over 30 years on the 961 & back to when the service was operated by Macdonalds of Stornoway, and the coach never went on the ferry, to save space & costs (luggage in a van - passengers on foot)
With Hitrans there were CTC plastic sacks made available at the ferry office in Ullapool and Farraline Park but depending on the loading they can be less fussy about Clause 56 (Citylink CoC) which applies to ALL their services
The new covers are a development to improve the offer, promoted by Hitrans
For reference, if it runs this year the 913 runs Edinburgh-Fort Bill via Perth & Strathearn, the 926 gets you deep South into Argyll, the 976 works better than the current times offered by Scotail's 'Dogbox' conversions for the midday sailings to outer isles from Oban, The 915/914 cover Glasgow-Fort Bill & Uig via Cluanie, 5 Sisters & Loch Alsh. 919/920 Inverness-Fort Bill
I've pestered the past 4 Citylink MD's to copy the railway system and use the call centre staff in Glasgow, and the manual seat reservation used for open return & Saltire card journeys (fee £1 per booking) to reserve dummy seats which are bike spaces on each service. This would be a great reassurance when travelling
All Stagecoach services operated by coaches carry bikes. The 974 Glasgow-Dumfries via Moffat takes around same time as the train with a very late return service at weekends (Stops at Park Gate for Ae Forest) the 500/X75 cover Dumfries-Stranraer, the X7 Perth-Aberdeen, Several coach services to Banff & Buchan, plus the 10/315/305 tracking the A96 (often used by kids riding on Ben Aigan trails up to 10 per coach if hold is empty - alight Fochabers) (Stagecoach CoC Clause 6)
There was also a connecting coach for Pentland Ferries from Gills Bay to Inverness, via the road end from John o Groats (hint!)
Comhairle Nan Eilean Siar has long set the default condition for all supported bus service contracts that cycles are carried (except the busy school services)
Hitrans also does this and started with WCMotors 448 Lochgilphead-Cluanie connecting the 3 mid-Kintyre ferry piers
WCM are introducing formal cycle carriage on Mull buses as well
Closer to home all Eves services outside Dunbar carry cycles as do the 3 long distance Borders Bus routes Edinburgh-Berwick/Peebles/Galashiels/Carlisle
A few holes to fill - but an ask for May elections candidates to deliver formal cycle carriage on many routes
Your homework - press Scottish Citylink to get reservations sorted - press MSP's & Councillors to 'seed' bike carriage on buses as well as coaches
My 'ghost editor' will kill me for this sermon!
PS there's great 2-day Contin-Ullapool off-road itinerary that Lee Craigie did with girls from Dingwall Academy & has on video Use coach to Contin, then coach back from Ullapool
Any guide on no of bikes various coaches *could* carry - presume a lot depends on ‘real’ luggage.
At present that seems to be the case with Natex if you avoid airport services & popular flows
The 12 metre 3.2m Plaxtons on Stagecoach Bluebird routes are reported as taking 10 bikes when kids go off on rides, loaded at 'convenient places' like bus stations & large laybys
We've had 3 on the 976 when the trains were fully booked with no issues
There were a few regulars on the 900 (to Glasgow) too
Ember Edinburgh-Dundee had cycle reservations
The 15m interdecks on X74 Dumfries, X7 Perth Aberdeen & Buchan Express had racks for up to 6 bikes
The record - which could easily be beaten now was 35 bikes on a 49-seat 12m Duple 320 (3.2m) for a group charter (cycle tour). You can just about stand bikes upright on a 3.5m, so a 3.7 or 3.9 15 metre tour coach with 3 hold bays between the wheels might be looking at 40 bikes neatly stacked (a 15m high floor = 65 seats in high capacity layout)
One thing I have wondered: why do buses here not have external racks? In America - hardly a bastion of either public transit or cycling - I've seen it claimed north of 70% of buses have a 2-3 cycle front rack. If such things were fitted as standard(even, whisper it, by law) to all standard services you could get away without a booking system unless the timetable was really sparse, folk could just wait for the next bus if they were full.
Maybe because bicycles are very dangerous, and in a collision pedestrians could be killed utterly to DETH.
ISTR that Tulyar and/or Morningsider have posted previously about bylaws and dwell times and security of the bikes.
All ‘true’ of course.
Perhaps the real question is what are the cultural differences in America that allow racks on buses?!
Pedestrians are barely a 'thing' in the USofA?
In 2004 the TRL did a limited study on the question of pedestrian safety of front-mounted bike racks on buses and concluded that they would be a significant backward step in that regard: https://trl.co.uk/uploads/trl/documents/TRL592.pdf
these test results suggest that modern buses and coaches, of the type tested here, offer a high level of pedestrian protection in their frontal structure. The fitting of bike racks and bikes, of the type tested here, would dramatically increase the risk of life-threatening head and chest injuries and long-term disabling leg injuries, particularly for children, in accidents involving pedestrians. Many of the points tested on the bike with the child and adult headforms would only hit a pedestrian’s head in the most unfortunate combination of pedestrian stature and
lateral position, subsequently the number of such accidents is likely to be small. Nevertheless, the very high values recorded in the child tests suggest that such a combination would normally result in a fatal injury. Therefore, it is recommended that the alternatives of re-designing or relocating bike racks should be considered. Suggestions have been offered in this report for re-designing the bike racks to make them more pedestrian-friendly.
In 2015 First Group and a local campaign group in Bath worked together to get a prototype of a front bike rack fitted to a First Group bus. The DVSA nixed the idea, very likely with the findings of the earlier TRL study in mind: https://walkridebath.org.uk/2015/06/04/front-of-bus-cycle-racks-the-dvsa-says-no/
Given the justifiable aggro* which blew up in the 1990s about bull bars on vans, pickups and the 4x4s of the time (which evolved via a convoluted pathway into the SUVs of today), I doubt the idea will ever gain much traction in the UK, or the EU (cue someone pointing out that they proliferate on vehicles in some or another EU state).
* I remember a colleague at the time proudly telling me about the new bull bars that he'd had fitted to his company 4x4 (obviously an essential requirement of his job as a customer IT hardware engineer based in the City of London). He was openly looking forward to people "getting out of his way" because of the aggressive fitment on his vehicle. Strangely, he was otherwise a likeable guy, which I think goes to show how motor vehcile ownership and usage can distort people's personaity and view of the world.
I mean, okay. I struggle to intuitively grasp the idea that there's a significant chance you could hit a child with sufficient force to cause injury with a bike rack attached to a bus, but they'd be okay if you just hit them with the bus, but numbers are numbers.
What's stopping them going on the back of the bus instead? The Americans didn't do that I'd read because it wouldn't be safe for the cyclist since the driver wouldn't be able to see when they'd finished getting the bike down, but that seems more a "we can't trust our drivers to bother checking their mirrors" problem and anyway could be solved these days with cameras. Security issues could similarly be solved by having the lock mechanism on the rack tied in to the bus such that it can't be disengaged unless the driver flips a switch in the cab.
Everyone always seems to be looking for reasons not to do things rather than thinking about how to make stuff work, it baffles me. EDIT: For clarity, that was a general remark, not a pop at anyone here.
Maybe it's blunt force vs sharp force impact. The front of a normal bus in the UK is going to hit you directly and transfer that force across the impact site probably sending you skittling off but other wise fairly undamaged.
Whilst that same force hitting you in a small cross section, a bike rack bar say, a few cm in diameter is going to do significantly more damage.
In general a rear bike rack on a long distance coach that the driver has to activate or get out of the cab to use seems like a much better solution than messing with bags and putting the bike in a, hold.
I've posted extensively on this as @Arellcat notes
@ejstubbs - TRL592 was commissioned and work carried out in 1997, in conjunction with projects I was working on in Brighton, and Cumbria - many amusing tales about large motor cars with no more than 8 seats and the emergency exit for the top deck of an open top bus. This was also the early days of CCTV and old school managers thought it was illegal for the driver to be watching a TV screen when driving
I can bore you anytime with C&U regulations, on receptacles, angles of viewing for rear lights, and the height limit for mounting them, and the distance from the extremities (sides & end of the vehicle) with the famous form VTP5 when a Class 6 Passenger Carrying Vehicle is 'modified' but how Class 4 and 5 can dodge the bullet
- buses on UK have the highest per vehicle hit rate for pedestrians, although HGV's kill at 4 x the rate per crash, as the flat panels on buses, low ground clearance (& vestigal lifeguards) mean that victims are bounced clear, and less able to slide underneath to get crushed under the wheels
- in the US buses operate on roads with no footways, and pedestrians are rarely on the street - in the UK a successful bus route is where there are lots of people.
TRL tested the pedestrian impact detail using the ENCAP template, and to this date I think its the only ENCAP testing that's been done on a large commercial vehicle
The first bike racks on US buses appeared in 1976 with loads of lessons learned, and by 1993 there were at least 3 front mounted systems, when Seattle Metro ran a competition for racks to fit their fleet 100% with racks (including the heavyweight Breda articulated trolleybuses with a diesel engine to run off-wire)
The contenders for Seattle
- fold up rack with 2 Thule roof rack units (Portland OR)
- fold up trays with strap & bar (DAVE - Phoenix AR)
- fold up trays - local Sportworks from Woodinville WA
Sportworks were selected & soon the racks were appearing all over the West Coast
I knew of US systems from 1990 visit, and saw the Sportworks rack in 1994. Their marketing & promotion was aggressive and they pressed for states to change their vehicle construction codes, to get racks fitted
We soon worked out that racks on the front would never get approval, with the detail of no forward facing corners less than 2.5mm radius impossible to deliver when there was no control on the bikes being loaded
Because of the reversal the US racks worked on the back of UK buses, but they also worked INSIDE the Devon Bike Bus (9 bikes & 21 seats with 8 standing). There were key issues - the units needed a solenoid to pin the securing arm and as the driver is responsible for the security of the bus there were some operational issues plus the detail of loading & unloading which added 40-60 seconds to the dwell time per bike
Sportworks continued to press that I could force DETR (DFT) to change the rules, and then went around me to get Cycleworks to promote front racks ... if only they had had a chat with me, especially as I'd known Firstbus's local area MD from when he ran Badgerline (which was taken over by First)
The conclusion is that bike carriage on rural bus routes delivers a welcome alternative to using fast (unlit at night) single carriageway roads over the longer distances out of town, especially for heading home at night, with the law since 2020 requiring all local service buses to be low floor, roll on - so in effect 100% of the buses operating registered bus routes are available to carry cycles.
This makes an excellent starting point, to try-out a service, and if there is major demand for cycle carriage to get hold of some ex-London (& recent Lothian) 2-door buses, and reprise the Devon Bike Bus (with the back section kitted out to carry bikes)
A further deal is to kit out buses for roll on roll off cycle carriage, and have a bus service that crosses an estuarial bridge or tunnel, often where cycling is prohibited, but can combine with a service for regular passengers - I'm currently hoping that the Ensign Bus X80 that oddly runs between Bluewater retail park and Lakeside retail park via the Dartford Crossing can deliver the requirement placed on the Dartford Crossing operator to provide a van to carry bikes and riders across (on demand - when they're not having lunch, or escorting a hazardous load...)
I also recommended this for a couple of UK schemes looking to install a cycle ski tow at massive cost & disruption to the street, and only suitable for cyclists with 2 legs and solo cycles (with freewheels), and even in 1996 the estimated maintenance costs were £1000 per metre per year. I suggested getting 2-3 fully low floor minibuses with roll through (on at front off at back) that could carry cycles, wheelchairs (up AND down) and folk not up for slogging up the local 'drumlin'
For Edinburgh that might be an electric bus from Canonmills to Viewforth perhaps replacing the private bus that Abdn (Standard Life) used to run over much the same route but offering a higher frequency service and free to board - drastically speeding up the journey times and cutting the number of buses required. Just time how long - even with cards and scanned tickets - a bus stands at the stop loading passengers - 2 doors & free to board and the trip flies by. Now could we find a sponsor????
Oh and a PS there have been a few deaths & injuries with Sportworks racks in US in one case the victim was in the hidden steradian, possibly picking up something that had dropped from the bike, and got run over as the driver pulled away
in the US buses operate on roads with no footways, and pedestrians are rarely on the street
Pretty much what I postulated in my earlier post. And yet, as you note, it hasn't prevented there being some serious incidents.
I agree that a RORO solution could be worth pursuing within urban areas. For longer distance/rural services I'd guess (wildly) that the increased dwell time to load & unload bikes to/from an appropriately equipped underfloor luggage area should be less of an issue - this view is based almost exclusively on past personal experience of loading and unloading ski holiday gear from airport⟷resort transfer coaches. (This might also be a factor in bus companies' preference for/insistence on bikes being bagged, so that they approximate to a slightly awkward suitcase - hence my use of the phrase "appropriately equipped" in relation to the luggage compartment, as opposed to just being a yawnng void as most seem to be at the moment.)
The issue with RORO is if we wanted it to be on every service, how willing are the bus companies going to be? They already only provide space for prams because they're legally obliged to provide space for wheelchairs, and if they started letting bikes use that space there'd be a murderous and probably justified outcry if they weren't even lower priority than prams, so the odds you'd get to use the space at peak times would be pretty low, and even outside that you might find yourself booted off somewhere along the route. You'll struggle to persuade them to give up ~4-6 downstairs passenger seats to make space for a dedicated bike rack.
Sure you can put on special buses on particular routes, but while that's great for leisure cyclists it's pointless for "I don't feel well", "Oops got a puncture", "Feeling a bit tired", "Get the bus there, ride home" utility cycling uses. The value of external racks is you can stick 'em on all the routes urban or rural, and while it's evidently well proven that front racks are a safety issue I'm still not seeing the case against rear racks except "it'd be a hassle".
@ejstubbs - totally the opposite - no cycle carriage in town, its faster to cycle - cycle carriage outside where some roads not pleasant, fewer prams & wheelchairs carried etc plus many positioning journeys where town based buses go out to start morning commuter services & return empty at night after last bus to village - ideal for a day out riding in the hills, but might be popular from Canonmills to Princes Street
@yodhrin For most carriage the % of cyclists is 2-4% of passengers carried so on a 35-40 seat single decker perhaps 2 bikes max on any one trip
The Passenger and Padam apps software suites can deliver
real time loadings and manifests for the driver as you can see in simple form with Borders Buses app (Passenger) and the Ticketer machines can have programmed in data capture for bikes boarded etc. Ember already has full loading management in real time for their Edinburgh-Dundee Coaches, all passengers MUST have a seat by law, and this is simply extended to allow reservation of wheelchair and cycle 'seats'
Pram carriage became an embarrassing off peak win for bus operators as they introduced RoRo buses, along with major reductions in dwell time at bus stops, as people got on/off faster. With the low floors many families found daytime trips with a prams especially convenient to the extent of demand exceeding supply
The latest design I'm aware of from Camelon (ADL) uses the 'dead' space over the front wheel arch cover (I want pictures!) for all Eve's services outside Dunbar locals (eg Gifford) when not in use, no seat space lost when in use, 2 seats lost for 2 cycles
“For most carriage the % of cyclists is 2-4% of passengers carried so on a 35-40 seat single decker perhaps 2 bikes max on any one trip”
and
“Pram carriage became an embarrassing off peak win for bus operators as they introduced RoRo buses”
Perhaps highlight the (potential) problems.
‘Provide and they will come’ is good if extra passengers don’t disadvantage the other passengers.
Easier to do with trains than buses of course.
I was on two 30 buses on Monday - single deckers because of low bridge. Outwards a man with a powered wheelchair got on, managed by driver, got off a few stops later. All efficient and amicable, very minor delay.
On the way back bus filled up with quite a few people getting on at several stops.
No idea if that was a typical’ journey but all the loading PLUS ‘traffic’ meant that bus was about 20 mins late by the time it got to the city centre.
As bike users ‘we’ want better facilities on PT as (justifiably) we see some of the benefits of making ‘active travel’ (not just walk/cycle) easier/better. SG wants 20% less car mileage.
‘Suggesting’ that people leave their cars at home more won’t be enough.
I was on 2 trains & 3 buses did some walking (more than I would like because North Bridge is still shut!) plus a bit of cycling.
To make this effective I used the (mostly) good LB bus/tram app plus RealTimeTrains site on the web.
I (probably) have above average (for my age) fitness/mobility and importantly (in this context) don’t have the default car/radio/satnav option.
I think most people here understand all this and believe that more people could/should get around more by foot/bike/PT.
BUT shifting fixed behaviours isn’t easy and (to use the boring, unhelpful, phrase) ‘carrots and sticks’ are needed.
Not convinced that small incremental changes here and there with lots of “reports” and “policies” is going to make much difference!
Continuing with the theme -
ALL buses/coaches should provide real-time info.
Stagecoach does, presume others too.
Anywhere to find them all?
Anywhere that combines live bus AND train info?? (Apart from TfL.)
If I were feeling particularly cynical, and I may be, I would say that in the main, "reports" and "policies" are elegant ways to consume talent and paper and make all the complicated doing somebody else's problem.
I don’t think that’s cynical at all in ‘reality’.
The hard/talented bit is writing a report that is both ‘politically acceptable’ AND possible to implement…
THEN it’s down to a wide variety of individuals, organisational cultures, vested interests/resistances, MONEY, etc etc.
Oh and ‘members of the public’.
Mmm
Ps. are any of these reports actually available in paper form anymore?
We do have one advantage in the progression towards a universal real time 'exchange' of data.
There are only a few providers of the app software, and the Scottish Government's role in getting all service buses using common standards for the use of RFID travel cards for concessionary travel (& now QR codes etc) most use the same formats and can integrate for the displays at bus stops in many places - where these are often managed by the areas' transport administrations (SPT, Hitrans etc) There is a desire to see this from many working in Transport Scotland
Using the RFID card as a base 'currency' was providing a simple platform (until Nextbike & Glasgow disabled this feature on their fleet),as I was able to use just 1 card - which never has a flat battery - to travel on any service bus or coach, unlock a Co Wheels or Enterprise car, and hire a nextbike (and possibly a Ride-On (Dundee) or Bewegen (Inverness, Forth Valley, Midlothian) bike with charges going to the appropriate account. That same card also gets me a 50% discount on Glasgow Subway and SPT rail fares, but is not as yet integrated with the Scotrail card readers to bill me for rail travel - something to kick hard for now that Scotrail is managed directly by Scot Gov
Note also that passive RFID cards are also used as staff (company & college) and student passes, so that instead of running an expensive private bus service between campus sites, the cards can be used for making those trips on reguklar bus services, or hiring bikes.
Manchester's Universities have already set this up, along Oxford Road for the many journeys made from halls and flats in Rusholme to the Central sites - Abdn might for example 'enable' use of staff passes on all bus services between Canonmills and Viewforth, gaining a far greater frequency of service and through the data collected on bus and cycle hire trips make a contribution to the services used, as well as having a say in the timetables, routes, and bikes available for hire which fit their inter-site traffic a sort of virtuous circle effect
Scottish Government might 'enable' staff passes for free travel on the 22 from VQ to St Andrew's House to Saughton House, possibly tweaking the route to make this more suited to the traffic between those sites, and of course if arranging to meet someone you can already know when to expect their arrival, by tracking their bus.
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