Do we have right of way in a cycle lane over vehicles turning left to cross cycle lane into an entrance?.
A scary near miss as I hurtled down Gilmerton Road in the bollarded cycle lane when a vehicle turned left into the Aldi car park less than a metre in front of me
Obviously he hadn’t seen me at all
As a sometime driver I have some sympathy as when you start a left turn your wing mirrors have changed their angle so the bike lane is no longer in the field of view and in a van without a passenger window you probably don’t see the bike lane either.
Ideally any driver should look along the cycle lane as he approaches his left turn to check if the lane is empty
I had assumed I had right of way and did not need to give way to a vehicle turning left across the cycle lane in front of me and that it was the drivers responsibility to wait until I had passed
However on checking the Highway Code ,I see no mention of any such right of way for the cyclist and it implies the cyclist should slow down or stop to allow a vehicle to turn left across the cycle lane
Has anyone researched this in more detail ?
Perhaps some warning signs for both cyclists and vehicles would be helpful for mutual safety at these fairly busy left turn entrances that cut across bollarded cycle lanes
I am sure that many other cyclists would also assume we had the right of way.
It could be a fatal assumption!
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Close shave in the bollards
(29 posts)-
Posted 1 year ago #
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Does it make any difference in we’re in a lane or not? Would always presume we have priority if going straight on, as would cars or other traffic.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Wasn't that one of the big things changed in the last hwc revision? Along with pedestrians having priority crossing side streets?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Did they pass you on the way to the junction?
Part of the recent changes to the Highway Code (making explicit what was previously implicit IMV):
Rule H3 - Rule for drivers and motorcyclists
You should not cut across cyclists, horse riders or horse drawn vehicles going ahead when you are turning into or out of a junction or changing direction or lane, just as you would not turn across the path of another motor vehicle. This applies whether they are using a cycle lane, a cycle track, or riding ahead on the road and you should give way to them.Do not turn at a junction if to do so would cause the cyclist, horse rider or horse drawn vehicle going straight ahead to stop or swerve.
You should stop and wait for a safe gap in the flow of cyclists if necessary. This includes when cyclists are:
approaching, passing or moving off from a junction
moving past or waiting alongside stationary or slow-moving traffic
travelling around a roundabouthttps://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/introduction
Of course "should not" and "MUST NOT"...
Posted 1 year ago # -
Highway Code Rule 211 is explicit:
"Do not turn at a junction if to do so would cause the cyclist going straight ahead to stop or swerve, just as you would do with a motor vehicle."
Posted 1 year ago # -
So I was correct in thinking I did have right of way? ,however in the interests of self preservation I will assume many drivers will either not see me or not even think they have to look along the cycle lane before turning across it.
Maybe it’s an unintended consequence of these bollarded cycle lanes- because we are almost physically separated from other traffic they pay no attention to us.As if we were not really there sharing the same road .Posted 1 year ago # -
Riding alongside other vehicles without cycle lanes poses many dangers but does at least put us more in the drivers zone of awareness especially in these left turn situations
Posted 1 year ago # -
“Give way to cyclists ‘ signs and road markings would not be amiss on busy entrances like that Aldi on Gilmerton road to make drivers aware they are about to cross a lane to their left that has priority
Posted 1 year ago # -
You think someone who can drive past a cyclist, not notice them (or not care) and left hook them is going to desist because of a sign they are unlikely to even see? There's probably nothing suitable in the list of permitted road signs or text markings anyway.
There is a road marking, it's the white line of the cycle lane. Actually from Streetview, the marking is probably wrong (solid white line rather than dashed) and strictly speaking no motor vehicle can ever legally enter or exit the Aldi car park. This Is Edinburgh, after all.
Posted 1 year ago # -
@Murun - You're allowed to drive into a mandatory cycle lane to access driveways, parking bays, side roads etc.
Can't find chapter and verse just now, but I looked it up after pondering these parking bays in Perth.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Re Perth, that’s a wide road even after the paint lanes!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Had a few instances going downhill on Gilmerton Road of people flashing drivers to turn right across them with no thought to anything that’s in the bollards. Potentially quite dangerous.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Thanks Frenchy. I still think it's wrong even according to CEC's own design manual ("Cycle lane provision should be
continued through priority junctions using a broken white
line (Diagram 1004 or 1010) and cycle symbols." for mandatory lanes) and probably TSRGD as well.CEC seem to have done it 'right' on Comiston Rd... EDIT though they have cocked up at that location by omitting either 1 or 2 Diagram 1057s (the bike symbol)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Even under the previous Highway Code I was under the impression that this constitutes crossing a traffic lane so driver at fault 100% i.e. no different to turning left from the outside lane or across a bus lane.
Posted 1 year ago # -
> Had a few instances going downhill on Gilmerton Road of people flashing drivers to turn right across them with no thought to anything that’s in the bollards. Potentially quite dangerous.
Clearly a bigger issue for 'us' but there's plenty of videos of really nasty car-on-car smashes where this happens on two lane roads. Definitely a 'thinking deficit' on flashing people out from some drivers regardless of road layout.
Only this week I've seen two incidences of people flashing out right-turners where the 'polite' driver could surely see the car coming the other way and preventing the 'flashee' from safely completing their manoeuvre.These days when driving I try to never flash anyone, in urban areas at least (it can still sometimes be the best way of avoiding trouble on eg. dual carriageways and motorways but still problematic and must be done carefully.) I will be careful to stop at side roads for pedestrians and leave a gap at side streets when in queues on main roads, but leave it completely up to the other road user to decide whether to make a move in their own time.
Posted 1 year ago # -
This reminds me of a trick question my driving instructor asked me: "what does a flash of the lights signify?"
The answer is "that the car's lights are working"Posted 1 year ago # -
I've had some good experiences of cars either not encroaching on cycle lane when pulling up to a laned road. Eg around bridge End and Old Dalkeith when heading south on Old Dalkeith.
Likewise, cars pulling back when they've pulled out into the lane, eg on Slateford Rd last week.
One thing I like about my new Swytch bike conversion is that I can barrel along at enough of a rate that they think twice about 'pulling out in front of a slow cyclist'. I'm still not going fast, but I'm not crawling along like I used to.
Posted 1 year ago # -
"what does a flash of the lights signify?"
The answer is "that the car's lights are working"<pedant>
Rule 110
Flashing headlights. Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users.Rule 111
Never assume that flashing headlights is a signal inviting you to proceed. Use your own judgement and proceed carefully.</pedant>
But in practice, few use it to alert other road users of their presence (cf horn usage), so "it could mean anything!".
Robert
Posted 1 year ago # -
Thinking that rather than warning signs ,a length of one of those yellow and black hard rubber speed bump things would be good in these situation where there is a continuous
Semi separated cycle lane intersected by an entrance to a relatively busy establishment like the Aldi in question- can’t imagine they cost very much
At least it would force the vehicle to slow almost to a halt before completing his or her left hook across the cycle lane. They might even bother to look to see if a cyclist was approaching and would give the cyclist more wiggle room.
In the meantime I think I will find it safer to no longer use the bollarded cycle lane down Gilmerton Road - at the speeds I descend on my flying recumbent , I am keeping up with most traffic ( well those obeying the 30 mph speed limit) and they are more likely to be aware of my presence than when I am secreted within the bollards.Posted 1 year ago # -
That is installing it on the right hand side of the cycle lane forcing the vehicle to virtually halt before proceeding across it
Posted 1 year ago # -
@jss Probably not legal
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/1025/pdfs/uksi_19991025_en.pdf
(I know that's E&W legislation but I'm sure there's a Scottish exact equivalent if I CBA looking for it)
Posted 1 year ago # -
How about a proper kerb…
Posted 1 year ago # -
Raised platform carrying footway & cycle lane a la CCWEL
Or
Continuous footway all possible, but money/TROs/political will?
They'll wait for a serious injury or worse, then handwring.
Posted 1 year ago # -
In a permanent design, we should certainly be looking for the cycle lane to be a few inches higher than the carriageway, with a wee ramp separating them.
An example on this page: https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/dictionary/continuous-footway
Similar could certainly be done using temporary materials.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Maybe someone should tell Dr. Scott
“
I had useful meetings today considering:
1. Road & footpath condition (potholes).
2. Roadworks scheduling.
3. Fly-tipping.
4. The LEZ
5. Funding and staff wellbeing.Progress is in the pipeline.
“
https://twitter.com/cllrscottarthur/status/1531361753476517890
Posted 1 year ago # -
Re :bollarded cycle lane awareness
Just as traffic pays little attention to what is going along these cycle lanes, I must confess that I pay little attention to the traffic outside the lane feeling safely protected within it , I have no particular reason to do so.
This makes any break in the physical protection of the bollards to allow the lane to be crossed more dangerous for both road and lane users , as we probably have not been paying much attention to each other until that point.Posted 1 year ago # -
@jss - late to this thread.
Basically my take from cycle training was that any vehicle changing lane 'must' ensure that lane (or road) is clear before doing manoeuvre.
But as you say the off / on nature of cycle complicates things. Plus as there's no presumed liability failure to comply hasn't much likely punishment.
New HC is maybe trying to edge towards this.
As majority of other road cycles don't cycle they don't really think. As you do both you probably consider more!
Was reported R4 Country file had a prog about bikes and still used the words 'entitled cyclist'. Motorists are always 'hard pressed'!Posted 1 year ago # -
@LaidBack: Was reported R4 Country file had a prog about bikes and still used the words 'entitled cyclist'.
Of course, in a sense it's true: cyclists* are entitled to use the road, whereas drivers of motor vehicles are required to be licensed in order to do so (and can have that privilege revoked).
* As are pedestrians and I think horse riders (not sure about drivers of horse-drawn vehicles). Funny how you never hear the gammons going on about "entitled pedestrians" or how horse riders "don't pay road tax".
Posted 1 year ago # -
“horse riders "don't pay road tax"
Now there’s a campaign…
Posted 1 year ago #
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