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To: "Dazzled" Lady, this past half hour on the Broughton Path

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  1. Yodhrin
    Member

    Writing here on the off chance you or someone you know frequents the place, since at the time I didn't think you'd appreciate a big scowly bloke chasing after you at night on the paths: this is the third or fourth time someone with your rough build and accent(either *very* Morningside, or English with the edges sanded off by some time spent up here) and so I presume you(since nobody else ever complains) has had a pop as you rode past on that stretch of path as I head to the Tesco and you head towards five ways, theatrically waving your arms in front of your face and exclaiming some variation on "nooooo too bright! too bright!" or "you're dazzling turn it ooooofff!", so I'm writing this to express sincere concern for you.

    I ride a dutch bike with an integral light mounted just above the wheel, it's a low-beam compliant with German standards, and it's completely washed-out by even the lowest setting on the Halfords handlebar mounted light I got for lower light situations(and which I do not mount otherwise, so it wasn't that). If such a low power low beam low mounted light is dazzling you, I urge you to visit your optician immediately because there might actually be something wrong with your eyes. That's not snark, it genuinely occurred to me a couple of minutes down the path but, as I say, I doubt you'd have appreciated me chasing you down to express the concern in person.

    Also perhaps tone down the performance next time, I actually thought you were going to fall off for a moment(okay, that was snark).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. gembo
    Member

    Most handle bar mounted lights now on canal towpath are too bright. The lights have become brighter at the lowest pay point.

    I would have thought above the wheel would be better.

    Sometimes when cars or indeed bikes are cresting a hill they can blind you but this sounds like it was on the flat bit after fivewaysnheading to canon mills Tesco.

    I have well and truly ripped my aldi wide beam light’s cheap strap. So it iis full blinder for me now on the large Lezyne that hears up so you can fry an egg on it,

    Don’t worry,I’m only put it on when others are blinding me. It is like a floodlight but battery lasts about half an hour.

    I was hoping to get through the dark months without using it.

    I was hoping to not have the bottom bracket fixed until the roads stop being a
    Salted.

    I do cover the bright one with my hand if everyone coming the other way is dipping etc as I have a baby cateye that is fine for Street but not for towpath.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. SRD
    Moderator

    I mostly try to stare away from the over bright lights, but that risks steering off the edge of the path. I do occasionally say 'please dip your lights'. and yes. I do put my arm up. can't see that harms anyone?

    @yodrin, two things to consider from my own experience:

    1. if you're riding downhill and the oncoming cyclists are up hill then they get your lights full in the face

    2. if you have a high frame / handlebar and rider is a shorter female - like me - then again, they are more likely to be getting your light in the face.

    I particularly find European style bikes with upright handlebars and large frame mens bikes a problem, especially as they seem to often have very bright lights.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. Arellcat
    Moderator

    If such a low power low beam low mounted light is dazzling you, I urge you to visit your optician immediately because there might actually be something wrong with your eyes.

    This is a rather sweeping assumption. Persistence of vision, and sensitivity to light, is different for everyone. What is too bright for someone is tolerable for someone else. As SRD points out, stature can magnify this.

    theatrically waving your arms in front of your face

    If the lady in question is reading CCE, she may not want to bother in future if this is how her concerns are perceived.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. Dave
    Member

    It's been many years, probably 10+ using lights with cut off beams but I've always had one or two complainers who I basically have to ignore. I like to calibrate it on the canal, the cut off striking the ground 2-3 sets of airfield lights in front. But then the Tern has a counterintuitive shaped light and someone (during the summer, I leave it on year round) pointed out to me that it was pointing upwards! Even though the top of the light was just down from horizontal. Grateful for that correction.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. MediumDave
    Member

    I have had the odd complaint about my elderly IQ Cyo being "too bright". In both cases the beam cutoff illuminated my interlocutor's knees and then (as I got closer) feet, nothing else.

    I suspect the Venn diagram of serial light complainants and those who leap a foot in the air when they hear a bell (or a "hello, I will pass on your right") is a circle.

    It would be overkill to mount a set of Exposures and an AirZound for "recalibrating" such individuals. Or at least that's what I tell myself on these rare occasions.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. SRD
    Moderator

    so is there *anyone* on here who has had people mention their bright lights, and who admits 'maybe it is a bit bright' or 'poorly angled'?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Only in the context of an occasional motorist taking a dislike to the powerful headlamps in the torpedo, which are angle-adjustable and usually pointing slightly down but sometimes I leave on level for extra presence.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. paddyirish
    Member

    I'm finding LEDs getting brighter and more dazzling, particularly on cars. I am often blinded on the descent from Burnshot towards the A90 when heading back towards the FRB, often having to stop.

    Every sympathy for those who are dazzled especially when the offender goes over bumps.

    Is it the usual issue that the manufacturers think only about the user of the lights and not at all about other road/path users.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. MediumDave
    Member

    Leaving aside some of the cheaper lights without beam cutoffs I don't know what else I or B&M (makers of my light) could do as the StVZO regs are specifically designed to reduce the chance of dazzle:

    https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/buyers-guides/stvzo-bike-lights/

    The picture you see is pretty much what I see when riding at night (though my Cyo has a narrower, dimmer beam than whatever the article author has). Short of kneeling down at 4m or less from the front of the bike (maybe a bit more if I'm going downhill right enough), the majority of the beam ain't going in anyone's eyes.

    There will of course be some light leakage (after all this light is not a laser) and this is desirable as it's a position light too. I suspect what is happening is these rare complaining people are staring directly at me which of course kills their night vision (residual light in an otherwise dark environment is all you see). Maybe I should go full-on mall ninja, dispense with the lights entirely and put on a set of these at night:

    https://www.taclight.co.uk/collections/night-vision/products/gsci-pvs-31c-mod-green

    Should I do so, I suspect there would be Complaints of the "<rule 2> cyclists -no lights" variety...

    (I don't actually have any night vision goggles. That would be Weird)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. MediumDave
    Member

    Oh, and back in the day in rural Lincolnshire I used to use a Petzl caving headtorch with a very bright (for the time) halogen bulb and a big belt pack full of C cells in addition to the not-so-bright B&M Lumotec on the bike.

    Set to spot mode that Petzl was truly excellent for "recalibrating" cagers who had temporarily forgotten how to use dip switch.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. stiltskin
    Member

    I have had people occasionally complain, that's usually when I have been off-road & forgotten to switch my MTB lights off. I do think people under-estimate how bright their lights are & also how much dispersion occurs if you aren't using a light with a cut-off. Having said that I have has a couple of complaints when riding with an STVO light. I have even stopped to check it myself. In these cases I think it is down to one of two things: Either age related eye problems or people who are so conditioned to being annoyed by super-bright lights that they stare into them as you approach. Any light can be too bright if you convince yourself it is going to be.
    But my experience of the NEPN is that there are a lot of ridiculuosly blinding lights & if someone complains then I would personally consider the probability that your light is too bright before blaming the complainer.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. Yodhrin
    Member

    @Arellcat Her concerns are perceived that way because the perception is accurate, she was literally flapping her arm in front of her face as she passed as if she was being attacked by swooping magpies. I pass people with actually-bright lights all the time, if it annoys me I mumble a swear word or shake my head or, more usually, just squint a little, I don't put on a performance like I'm a dying character in a Shakespeare play. And if someone is light-sensitive enough to be dazzled by the style of light I have, why are they riding at night at all? Every streetlight must be like staring into the sun, every passing car a blinding flare - putting yourself in control of a vehicle of any kind with a known impairment of that level is simply irresponsible.

    @stiltskin I did consider it, but again - stVZO-compliant low beam, not very bright(the setting on my halfords lamp that washes it out is less than 100 lumen), mounted just above a 28" wheel. Also the Path in that area is barely an incline let alone a hill. It was considering it that led me to believe the lady might have some vision issue she should get checked. It's a legal requirement to have lights at night, if I don't have the lights on when on the path I get peds whinging that I'm "bloody invisible", and I have one of the tamest, least powerful front lights it's even possible to have.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. chrisfl
    Member

    I did upgrade my lights this year, normally make sure I'm pointing down and low light mode when on the canal etc.

    Earlier in January around 9am I was in bright flashing mode, while on the Roseburn path for the briefest time, and I hadn't turned to low mode, someone did say "too bright" and it did seem reasonable, I had possibly not anticipated the brightness as in theory it was light.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. ARobComp
    Member

    On the hills the other night. I passed through a gate in the saddle by the military road between allemuir and Caplaw. I spotted another MTBer coming down the hill so checking my bike and it's floodlight were pointed away from them I held the gate open for them helpfully... All the while blinding them completely with my helmet mounted light. He was somewhere between thankful and startled.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. steveo
    Member

    so is there *anyone* on here who has had people mention their bright lights, and who admits 'maybe it is a bit bright' or 'poorly angled'?

    If I'm taking the mtb off road I use the same light for the whole trip and a couple of times I've had people mention it. Even on its lowest setting its quite bright and on unlit sections it's not brilliant. I do cover it when I can but sometimes it's not safe to do so. So nothing else to do but apologise on the other hand I'm generally on unlit paths and in the hills after 7 o'clock, the number of people who are out is very low and the ones who are out are also running lights inappropriate for the commute paths.

    I did once come down the path to the scout camp at pace with the lights on full i didn't see the two walkers coming up until it was too late to do anything but shout profuse apologies, taking a hand off the bar wasn't an option and by the time I'd have stopped to adjust it I'd have been in front of them with light in their eyes while I faffed.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. Greenroofer
    Member

    So is there *anyone* on here who has had people mention their bright lights, and who admits 'maybe it is a bit bright' or 'poorly angled'?

    Me, as (like @Dave) I've let the headlight on my Tern get out of position (it just rotates round on the bars, so it's easy to do).

    I've stopped caring about the grumblers, frankly. Every front light on all my bikes is from B&M, stVZO-compliant and (apart from the Tern, sometimes) properly aligned. I think often the grumblers over-react to a light that is bright but not dazzling. 10 years of towpath commuting has shown me there's a difference. In fact, I often used to recognise @Dave coming the other way based on exactly that: @Dave's light was eye-catching and visible, but didn't create that impenetrable wall of white glare that one gets when facing a cheap light that throws out a bright cone of light in all directions.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. the canuck
    Member

    There are a lot of bright lights on the NEPN, far brighter than needed, given it's all well-lit.
    I mean, yes, it's not as bright as day, meaning a person might have to slow down, but quite frankly, it is not at all safe to do top speeds on the NEPN at night--there are a lot of other creatures to share the space with, and they aren't as observant as you might think.

    Please, can we get the word out to put lights on a solid beam? Especially those with wierd unpredictable patterns. It's like the bike disappears and it's impossible to know where it will re-appear.
    I've seen some that have a light that is constant plus a small flash, and that's easier to work with.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. mcairney
    Member

    One point worth making is that you can’t assume that all stages of a cyclists journey will be equally well-lit and it makes sense to have lights powerful enough for the darkest parts. In saying that I’d imagine those running extra-powerful 500 + lumen) to see, rather than be seen will also be experienced enough to both dip their beams and run it at a lower strength in populated areas.
    This kinda reminds me of doing a night ride with a couple of friends a while ago and one of them (who is into MTBing) was running an absurdly powerful Exposure front light. Doing a shoulder check was blinding and when they were behind you it was hard to tell if it was them ir a cars headlights! On that note I’m planning on doing RttS later this year. Hopefully my Niterider 900 will be up to the task!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. the canuck
    Member

    Yes, one would hope they were sensible, but my experience is either they are not, or I keep encountering the same 5 clueless people.

    I nearly came off my bike once on the Lothian road. I did a shoulder check, and the bike behind me had a light more dazzling than any of the cars--when I looked back in front, I genuinely couldn't see, and started to panic. We then had a red light, so I tried to explain to him that his light was too bright for safety, but he was just extremely rude and entitled in return.

    I can see the need for bright lights on unlit paths, or MTB in the evening--but not city commuters.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. LaidBack
    Member

    Cheap diffuse LED bike lights and overbright car headlights.... seem worse now.

    Fuego has a SON Edelux and that has decent beem as do all B&M dynamo lights.

    @arellcat

    the powerful headlamps in the torpedo, which are angle-adjustable and usually pointing slightly down but sometimes I leave on level for extra presence.

    Seem to remember they had a 'remote' adjust - B&M Cyos? Maybe got that wrong.

    Even good lights of course end up bouncing out of position. UA cargobikes use Lezyne light now which are much better than what they fitted back in 2013 but the vibration on a 20" front wheel can misdirect them. The rear light though is still pretty weak - unless you go for the model with a Supernova built in brake light.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. fimm
    Member

    When I'm MTBing in the dark I have an extra "be seen" front light which I use on the road sections so I don't need to run my really bright front light.

    IMHO it is perfectly possible to turn a front light down or off, or adjust from flash to non-flash, when you don't need it. Back lights are different - my back light is fairly bright and if I'm riding both road and off-road on a particular route I would have to stop and get off my bike to adjust it.
    (There's an exception - when MTBing I'd sometimes stop and take my back light off completely for the off-road sections to stop it getting full of mud/water - nothing illegal about that and anyone else out there going faster than me is going to be another MTBer with a bright front light.)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Seem to remember they had a 'remote' adjust - B&M Cyos? Maybe got that wrong.

    Yes, two 60 lux Cyos on a spring and a cable, with a Sturmey gear lever to aim them up/down. It works really well.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. Dave
    Member

    That's a cool idea. I don't reach down to the tyre area to adjust my lights personally, after I once put my hand (luckily with glove) into the wheel instead, but have often wondered about using a shifter cable based system to bend it up and down.

    Anyone who comes down WoL (or Donkey lane) or along the proms, or eg. from the west onto NEPN will need to have a light that they can see with in complete darkness, I'm not sure what % are in this category but it means they obviously have disproportionate lights in town compared with minimal blinkies that would be OK for streetlit areas only.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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