CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
So if you're coming in from the northwest/NCN1 and cycling is "discouraged" on the Roseburn Path, what is the alternative route that you're supposed to use to get to Roseburn/Haymarket?
I'm undecided on the use of the Roseburn Path for the trams but such an alternative cycling route will need to be in place for a while at least when construction is ongoing so it would be good to know what the plans are...
We don't know for sure but it seems to be path until Telford, then Crewe Rd South, up Orchard Brae(mixing with traffic if you're coming down), along Queensferry Road to the Dean Bridge, then up through the junction there to the part where CCWEL gives up and follow that out to Roseburn.
I genuinely don't know how they're going to sort the Orchard Brae and Dean Bridge to Melville St sections for "all ages & abilities" when they seem adamant they're not going to impede motor traffic unless they absolutely have to for the sake of buses, not to mention the Crewe roundabout.
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Right now, it feels like suggesting Orchard Brae as a preferred candidate before the consultation even starts would be failing to learn the lessons from impacts to businesses and local communities we have seen as part of both the CCWEL and Tram projects – residents will not forgive us for this.
We also have to think about funding. If all goes well, the Scottish Government will fund the project. To do that we will need a strong cost-benefit ratio. Adding to costs whilst eroding the benefits will not help.
I am continually being told that Edinburgh must be bolder and act faster in the face of the climate emergency. This tramline is a chance to show Edinburgh is serious. Waiting for climate solutions which come with no compromise is not an option.
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https://drscottarthur.scot/2024/01/30/whats-next-for-trams-in-edinburgh-orchard-brae-or-roseburn/
Fine words, but rather presumptuous - of a lot of things.
This tramline is a chance to show Edinburgh is serious.
Yes, but parking.
So much wrong with what's written in Arthur's blog, it's hard to know where to start
the preferred “Roseburn” route we hope to consult on was chosen because, when compared to the alternatives, it come with a...... 4. Lesser impact on businesses and residents;
You mean it will go past fewer businesses and residents? How is this even a reason?
Waiting for climate solutions which come with no compromise is not an option.
Did you forget about the destruction of an active and climate-friendly route as well as a park and a protected species?
"Black is white!"
"Waiting for climate solutions which come with no compromise is not an option" so long as the compromise involves no re-allocation from private cars and the loss is fully borne by everyone else
@Yodhrin I was thinking Maidencraig Crescent, Queensferry Road, Craigleith Crescent, Succoth/Murrayfield Avenue to get to Roseburn/Russell Road for the new link. Of course that would require some infrastructure on the A90, uphill sections, and maybe some modal filters to make it a quieter route.
@boothym, yeah that's probably the way I would go. Generally ok apart from the horrible Queensferry Rd junction (and the extra gradients!)
Might also do Ravelston Dykes/Craigcrook Road if heading north.
I’m viewing all this as very much worst case scenario given a nascent protest group on FB, the issues CEC will have funding the line and indeed the backstop of the douce, well-connected folk of Coates and Coltbridge.
But if the worst comes to the worst, perhaps the ginnel between Lennel Ave and Murrayfield Gdns could be destepped/ramped and form part of a replacement route? Same width as parts of NCN1 through D Mains and Barnton (not that that means it’s good)…
I had a similar thought when I saw that dead end on a map, it looks like this:
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=807917470131790
(presumably someone's garden to the side)
What about routing the tram over Dean Bridge then along QF Rd to Craigleith/Groathill Ave S, then rejoin the proposed route to Telford Rd? That would serve both the shopping centre and WGH and avoid Orchard Brae and the Roseburn Path.
I would argue the age of the mega project is dead.
Public finances are running on fumes as far as I can see, too. Even the brown bin collection fee here is now £40, up from £35 last year, notwithstanding that we're having to pay for it at all.
There was a recent observation regarding the Channel Tunnel, one of the biggest and most complex infrastructure projects ever. Were it proposed now, it is likely that it would never be green lit. Meanwhile in the land of Maglev...
Not the same
But
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The government had promised in 2016 to reduce journey times for north-east rail passengers heading towards Glasgow and Edinburgh by around 20 minutes.
The £200 million commitment formed part of the Aberdeen City Region Deal and transport chiefs earmarked 2026 for completion of the overall project.
But on Tuesday morning, Transport Secretary Mairi McAllan admitted the project is being reviewed in light of budget pressures, sparking fears of delays.
The latest set-back comes one year since we revealed the project had received only £6.5m of the promised £200m fund – just over 3% of the budget.
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Local GP Vivienne Whyte, who cycles on the path, said: "I work in Leith and it is just a lovely commute because it is very peaceful and calming and I think the impact on people's health is huge.
"I encourage many of my patients to incorporate exercise into their daily routine and lives, so I think it is absolute madness to start bringing trams into this space."
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https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/the-new-edinburgh-tram-route-28539271
@boothym The issue with Maidencraig is you've got to get the tram/AT path past the Telford bridge, then the bridge/back gardens on either side pinch point over Groathill Rd South(7.5m), or provide a controlled crossing/lanes on Telford Road to get you into Groathill Rd South from the other end, or go down Groathill Ave and then have a crossing of the tracks which would probably end up being shared space at the stop itself. From the perspective of an engineer primarily concerned with designing the fastest tram with the least possible impact on the almighty God of Traffic Flow each has an unappealing aspect. Although, maybe more appealing than dealing with the angry driveway-havers and overflowed-shoppers you'd get by banning parking along the whole length of Groathill Ave to provide proper lanes which is the only other option I can see.
Craigleith Crescent could do with a road diet anyway - parking on both sides, wide lanes, central hatching, but supposedly 20mph residential? LOL. Get rid of the hatching, two way track on one side, parking restricted to marked bays one one side or the other to create a chicane for the roadway, and yeah probably stop up a few side roads to avoid having to deal with crossing them.
@Colonies_Chris Creates too many knock-on issues on traffic in their minds probably. Dean Bridge would almost certainly have to be bus gated or else the tram would barely move along that corridor at peak times, and if there's any chance of fitting bikes over it(they're pretty firmly against adding a supplementary structure) without dangerous interactions it'd have to go single-track there as well so would need lights with an all-stop phase to give it priority. No way they'd block general traffic from there, how else are they supposed to funnel SUVs up Lothian Road? That or they'd have to pick another route for the promised on-road provision we're supposed to get regardless of what route the tram takes, which would mean in practice heavily filtering Dean Village to make the Dean Path-Bells Brae route quiet enough.
What it keeps boiling down to is they *physically can't* give everyone what they've promised while preserving "traffic flow", it simply can't be done, there's not enough space. This whole thing was bound to be a boondoggle the moment they refused to consider a *real* circulation plan that divided the city up into sectors based on major roads and routed *all* private through traffic out to the bypass - maintaining car through routes *and* bus priority *and* finding space for a tram just uses up all the available space.
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Edinburgh City Council, TEC 1 Feb 2024 - Spokes deputation
7.3 Tram from Granton to BioQuarter and Beyond Consultation for Strategic Business Case Development
Spokes is extremely concerned over the proposal to remove cycling from the Roseburn corridor.
We appreciate that the report is about the contents and processes of the consultation, and we ask you to amend the consultation proposals such that retaining cycling on the Roseburn path (whether through a cycle/wheel/walk route beside the tram, or an onroad tram route) is a given in the consultation.
1. Spokes has always supported the tram in principle, assuming holistic design in which cycling, walking and indeed bus are fully catered for (albeit that has not always been the case so far!) We see cycling as part of an overall sustainable transport and access strategy, not as single-issue.
For the avoidance of doubt, whilst Spokes would be very happy with a holistically-designed onroad tram route, and that would be much preferable for wildlife and nature, we have never opposed the option of tram on the Roseburn route if that is very clearly shown to be the best public transport route, provided good cycling and walking conditions remain.
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More at
Page 21
Once again a small band of Spokes VOLUNTEERS is doing work it shouldn’t have to.
I cycled the Maidencraig / Craigleith Cres / Garscube Tce route last night, "just for kicks", and it was properly horrible...
An awkward dogleg out of Maidencraig along Queensferry. Then the 2-stage pedestrian crossing across the A90 gets blocked if there is more than one bus at the stop there (it was). No chance that bikes will ever get priority (or even respect) crossing the A90 even if they did remodel the junction.
Two steepish and longish climbs on Craigleith Crescent which is full of speeding rat-runners. Then Ravelston Dykes was wall to wall traffic with a nasty right turn into Garscube.
Garscube is also a massive rat-run, I never knew/expected that! Then steep and long descent back down to the Water of Leith (so will be a climb in reverse)
Plus, I feel like I've breathed in a year's worth of fumes and felt nauseous after the ride. Yeeeuuck.
Pretty sure my son and I will be riding on the footpath, or whatever becomes left of the Roseburn path, come what may. Don't know what we'll do during several years of construction...
Really good deputation by Friends of Dalry Cemetery
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Friends of Dalry Cemetery were incredibly excited at the prospect that the £12.5m Union Canal to Roseburn linkup might bring more foxes, rabbits, and even badgers or hedgehogs to the cemetery.
But then we saw how that building work was executed. Every tree that stood, every insect that crawled, razed to the ground.
Now we learn that we’ll be linking to nothing but more paving, and concrete. That is exactly what will happen to the Roseburn Path. Not a single plant or animal will be left alive when the works proceed. We can never undo that.
Trams should not come at the expense of an existing world-class nature corridor - with bats, hedgehogs, owls, and badgers, all protected species, throughout - and an extremely popular active travel route. If we must have more trams, let them take space from cars. Less car use is the goal.
If there are genuine concerns about the safety of the Roseburn Path, at night, then let us have a reasonable discussion about lighting provision. Lights cost less than tramlines. Stop letting lack of existing lighting be an argument for destroying.
If the object is to fight the climate & biodiversity crisis, we can’t continue cutting down trees and destroying greenspace to do it.
None of the reports have quantified the mental health benefits of being in nature, that will be lost to hundreds of thousands of people, because those can’t be quantified.
Clearly the Roseburn option is preferred because it is anticipated to be less expensive. But only in monetary terms. Not in terms of the quality of the city, the physical and mental health of its inhabitants, and the wellbeing of its nature.
Take one walk along the Roseburn Path and another along Leith Walk and tell me in your heart of hearts that this plan, with walkers put next to 40mph trams and cycling actively discouraged, would be an improvement. Destroying the Roseburn Path will cheapen and sterilise Edinburgh. I beg you not to let that be the Council’s legacy.
#SaveTheRoseburnPath
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Once upon a time we had trains in Edinburgh AND on-street trams AND people walking and cycling. AND fewer cars.
TEC
Daisy just said ‘bikes won’t be banned’ IF trams go down Roseburn Path.
CEC looking at single tracking around bridges.
Paul Lawrence says ‘outline of amount of tree removal should be in consultation’.
It’s clear that Cllrs and officials have had a LOT of emails about Roseburn Corridor.
“Sensitive property issues” (says Paul Lawrence) around Crewe Toll for routing tram (not just Fire Station).
Need £44m to do a business case from SG.
SA says ‘TS will be looking to see if political support’.
Round-up speech from Councillor Sanne Dijkstra-Downie (LibDem)
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As my colleague has said, we are open to the extension of the tram network, but not at any cost.
This path has been described as a well-being route, a linear park, an important green space loved by many many people in north and west Edinburgh and beyond. It is a nature corridor and a home to wildlife in the heart of our city - an amazing example of a rewilded industrial space. Someone called it a lifeline for city kids - that’s certainly my experience too.
A tram through it will forever alter that.
While there has been much discussion of maintaining some form of cycling alongside the tram line, undoubtedly the experience would be severely compromised compared to what we have now. Moreover, it would no longer be a stress free place to let a kid learn to ride a scooter, or to walk a dog, without constant vigilance for an approaching tram every few minutes. Or a place for foxes, badgers, bats, owls and hedgehogs and other species to roam undisturbed.
The path network is honestly one of the best things about living in north Edinburgh. It is now a completely traffic-free connection from Leith and Newhaven to Haymarket and will soon connect to the canal. And as with any network - to lose even just a section of it is to diminish all of it.
It is right that a consultation goes ahead so that everyone has a chance to express their views. But we want to be very clear. This Lib Dem group will not support the tram extension along the Roseburn path.
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#edinwebcast
#Tram extension #Granton to @EdinburghBQ
@CllrScottArthur accepts #Green & #SNP amendts (slight changes)
Voting
7 Lab+Green+SNP
2 LibDem
2 Con
SO, the consultation will..
(1) consider pros & cons of tram onroad/offroad
(2) treat cycling option beside tram as +ve
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My wee update on today's Transport & Environment Committee - I was very pleased we reached a point where the Greens, SNP, Lib-Dems and Labour all supported the two future tram line options (Roseburn and Orchard Brae) going out to consultation.
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https://x.com/cllrscottarthur/status/1753134729967141260
With 5 min video
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