I wonder if others also experience near death experiences from left turning motorists ?
I know as a driver that there is actually a blind spot as you turn left so it is very hard to see the cycle lane at the moment you turn .Whilst you can look in your wing mirror before you turn ,as you turn that mirror swings away. A fast moving bike can unexpectedly suddenly appear .
I have almost been wiped out a few times like this. Am I correct that as a cyclist in a bike lane I legally have right of way and a vehicle turning left should wait until I have passed on his or her left.? But as I have indicated ,at certain points you are invisible. In the interests of self preservation ,I now stop to allow vehicles to cross the cycle lane , but it can be very annoying on fast descents. I think an unintended consequence of segregated bollarded cycle lanes is that car drivers pay less attention to us and we pay less attention to other vehicles.
Not sure what the solution is - warning signs to drivers on left turns to give way to cycles on their left ? Compulsory extra mirrors on vehicles to overcome the blind spot on the left?
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Commuting
The perils of being on the left
(27 posts)-
Posted 6 months ago #
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Yes, a cyclist going straight on in a cycle lane absolutely has priority over a driver turning left across that cycle lane. Cold comfort if there is a collision, though.
"I think an unintended consequence of segregated bollarded cycle lanes is that car drivers pay less attention to us and we pay less attention to other vehicles."
My experience is that on these roads *all* my near-collisions are now at junctions, whereas on other roads I will also have close passes. I'm not convinced I experience more left hooks on, for example, Gilmerton Road, than I did in 2019.
A large part of the solution is for junctions to start looking a lot more like this (there are probably better examples, this is just one I am familiar with; the sign says something like "Attention! Make sure you see each other").
Posted 6 months ago # -
“
Interesting new study on the role of junction design in keeping cyclists safe in low-speed areas
https://sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967070X24001173
“
Posted 6 months ago # -
Think I felt safer coming down Gilmerton Road before the cycle lane. I was either directly behind vehicles or passing them on the right. I think it is against the Highway Code for a vehicle to overtake on the left.So motorists are not expecting cyclists to do so ,even if they are in a bike lane.
The entrance to Aldi is where I expect to meet my maker ,but I am usually at a pretty high speed so my extinction should be fairly instantPosted 6 months ago # -
Two recent videos of mine are relevant here. This one from last week, where a Lothian Bus driver didn't appear to check his inside before pulling into a stop on Craigmillar Park, resulting in an emergency stop and brown trousers:
And this one from September last year. The police refused to even talk to the driver (I told them that I didn't want the driver charged, but would like them to talk to him and remind him about who has priority here), they claimed that because it's a bus stop, the cycle lane has ended, and the driver is ahead of me in the same lane. Cycle Law Scotland say that's nonsense and are currently claiming through his insurers - but it's worrying that it means that the police are of the opinion that cyclists are meant to give way at every single bus stop in a cycle lane:
Although I don't have a video of it, I was at This Junction at Newington yesterday, in the cycle lane, and a police car turned left across my path when the lights turned green. Thankfully the deliveroo cyclist in front of me was slow to set off from the lights because he was checking his phone / GPS, or he'd have been under the police car.
Posted 6 months ago # -
The bus incident looks really scary, difficult to see how you could have known when they were going to potentially stop until they did. Suspect the segragated infra actually causes issue here as normally you'd just be cycling behind the bus, not inside of it, which would have made it easy to overtake it on the right. Perhaps segregation should stop earlier so people can't be travelling along the inside of vehicles which could start a manouvre.
In the 2nd one the car is indicating for quite some time before you attempt to undertake it, so this seems clearer that it's a mistake on your part, though appreciate it was still scary. I'd have always slowed to allow a vehicle to turn in this circumstance.
Posted 6 months ago # -
In the 2nd one the car is indicating for quite some time before you attempt to undertake it,
The driver indicating does not, of course, absolve them of their responsibility to give way to cyclists in the cycle lane.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Rule 74 seems pretty clear:
"Do not ride on the inside of vehicles signalling or slowing down to turn left."
Posted 6 months ago # -
Rule H3 (under "Hierarchy of Road Users") is also very clear:
"You should not cut across cyclists, horse riders or horse drawn vehicles going ahead when you are turning into or out of a junction or changing direction or lane, just as you would not turn across the path of another motor vehicle."
"Do not turn at a junction if to do so would cause the cyclist, horse rider or horse drawn vehicle going straight ahead to stop or swerve."
"You should stop and wait for a safe gap in the flow of cyclists if necessary."
"Wait for the cyclist to pass the junction before turning."
Posted 6 months ago # -
H3 would certainly apply in the first bus interaction, the bus turned into the cyclist.
In the 2nd interaction the car was a long long way infront of the cyclist (not like the H3 diagram) indicating for a long time, giving plenty warning of what they were about to do for trafic behind them.
Anyway, not worth arguing about. I'll simply carry on not having left hook interactions with vehicles by slowing down when I see indicating vehicles, good luck to you in your vehicle interactions. :)
Posted 6 months ago # -
Yeah , almost a contradiction between these two rules.As a driver you are taught never to overtake on the inside left lane, so it’s outwith a driver’s default mindset that anything, even a bicycle would so. Agree that whatever the rule, discretion is the better part of valour in these situations.
Posted 6 months ago # -
"As a driver you are taught never to overtake on the inside left lane, so it’s outwith a driver’s default mindset"
Not just drivers, as a cyclist the number of times I've done a left shoulder check incase another cyclist is going to undertake me on the left whilst I'm turning left is precisely none.
Posted 6 months ago # -
Agree but I might well be going faster in a cycle lane than the vehicles on my right And when it’s not bollarded ,unfortunate situations can occur. Common sense should prevail and the urge to get there quicker restrained as the “there” might turn out to be the thereafter
Posted 6 months ago # -
Cyclists perspective...
Posted 6 months ago # -
In the 2nd one the car is indicating for quite some time before you attempt to undertake it, so this seems clearer that it's a mistake on your part, though appreciate it was still scary. I'd have always slowed to allow a vehicle to turn in this circumstance.
True, which is the main reason I asked the police to just talk to the driver. I was focused on the potholes in the cycle lane, then didn't spot the indicator when the car was in the sun. When I did see the driver indicating, they were going very slowly and I didn't even know there was a road entrance there (it's hidden by the bus stop). I thought they were going to park in the cycle lane, and were waiting for me to pass.RE: passing on the left - it's a cycle lane here (despite what the police claim), so those using the cycle lane have priority over vehicles turning left across it. It's the same as if the driver was turning left into a side road across a bus lane. I appreciate that being right doesn't help if you're under a car of course :)
I just avoid this cycle lane heading Southbound now - particularly at rush hour, when there's almost always vehicles stopped in it, and the police effectively say that I have to give way at every bus stop, so I'd rather take the abuse from the odd driver for not using the cycle lane.
Posted 6 months ago # -
"As a driver you are taught never to overtake on the inside left lane"
I wasn't taught that. I was taught to comply with the Highway Code (which I believe you are still examined on as part of the test). The relevant section in the current edition is Rule 163, which states:
• only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so
but also, and indeed immediately afterwards, and particularly pertinently to this discussion:
• stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left. Cyclists may pass slower moving or stationary traffic on their right or left and should proceed with caution as the driver may not be able to see you. Be careful about doing so, particularly on the approach to junctions, and especially when deciding whether it is safe to pass lorries or other large vehicles.
"so it’s outwith a driver’s default mindset that anything, even a bicycle would do so"
I think you may be overlooking drivers who also ride bikes (or motorcycles for that matter - though filtering on motorcycles seems to be becoming a dying art). It might be the case for some such people that the "driver's mindset" becomes engaged whenever they're behind the wheel (hence maybe "I'm a cyclist too") but that's not really an excuse. As well as using my mirrors, I always aim to do a shoulder check before turning across a cycle lane (which I do on a fairly regular basis, given that my most usual route home when I'm in the car involves turning off Comiston Road into Caiystane Crescent) or in other circumstances when I suspect that a cyclist or biker might be filtering on my left (or even on my right, should the circumstances make that likely).
Not so long ago a left shoulder check actually helped me avoid an accident with an impatient driver, who had been sat on my rear bumper as I drove up Lanark Road within the 30mph limit - and then tried to pass me by cutting across the hatch marks as I was turning in to Spylaw Park. I had slowed in preparation for the turn, and for the upcoming 20 limit, which no doubt enraged him still further. Although I hadn't passed any bikes in the cycle lane I still did a shoulder check and was somewhat (although not totally) surprised to see matey in his SUV apparently intent on entering through my nearside passenger door without actually disembarking from his vehicle first - a manoeuvre he quickly aborted when I made it clear that (a) I had seen what he was trying to do, and (b) I regarded it as distinctly unwise on his part.
Posted 6 months ago # -
As a driver you are taught never to overtake on the inside left lane
You're also taught not to turn across another active traffic lane unless you've confirmed it's clear, and that you should never make maneuvers that force another vehicle to brake abruptly or take evasive action. It's funny how motorists only ever seem to remember things they were taught when it excuses their illegal actions.
Which is the real problem in these interactions: "traffic lane" and "vehicle", in the minds of too many drivers, means "car lane" and "car". Cyclists aren't people and bikes aren't vehicles is the mentality that most people behind the wheel hold, and that's not going to change so long as we just meekly let the bullies do what they like.
I'll always have my hands on my brakes and be ready to evade when I think a car might cut across me, but like banjo will I pretend like I don't have priority in that situation, and if they do force a break or evasion then my response won't be polite.
Posted 6 months ago # -
As noted if you change lane or direction in any sort of vehicle you 'must' check that it is clear to do so.
From my cycle training way back this was why looking over your shoulder (or in mirror when in car or on recliner) is top tip.
The recent 'give way to pedestrians' crossing side roads was always a rule. Many drivers still believe people should give them space to turn as anything that's a road = rails to drive on.
Undertaking lines of traffic is totally normal on roads such as the M74 going into Glasgow. I had a lift there recently and multiple lanes of traffic were moving at different rates. Some amazing rapid lane crossing as people compete to get to the head of the jam. Often accidents of course!
In city bus lanes are designed to allow over (under)taking on the left. These open to taxis and bikes of course.Posted 6 months ago # -
Looking at the video - 2nd car interaction - again, I don't beleive the rider was actually 'in' the cycle lane. If you look at the road markings the cycle lane contimues right to the outside of the bus stop, and then back in.
If the cyclist had been in the cycle lane at the point of the interaction (pause at 19s), they would have been on the right hand side of the car.
Posted 6 months ago # -
If you look at the road markings the cycle lane contimues right to the outside of the bus stop, and then back in.
The bike marking in the road isn't to mark the cycle lane, it's simply to make drivers aware that cyclists may be there (because they're passing a bus). Similarly with the bike markings between the tram lines on Princes Street (though I can't remember seeing them recently, maybe they were removed)EDIT: You can see at 15-16 seconds in the video, there's a bike marking in the main carriageway, outside of the cycle lane.
Cycle Law are of the opinion that "just because there's a bus stop there, that doesn't mean that the cycle lane ends - just that the bus stop is in the cycle lane".
Posted 6 months ago # -
The recent 'give way to pedestrians' crossing side roads was always a rule.
That was extended in the latest version (the one with the Hierarchy of Road Users in it). The key new wording in Rule 170 of the latest version is highlighted below:
• give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross a road into which or from which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way.
Previously, in Rule 146, it said:
• watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way
I think the retention of the second sentence from the old rule 146 in the new rule 170 is unnecessary, and actually makes the new rule 170 less clear. Simply stating "give way" as in the first part of the current rule 170 should be sufficient.
Posted 6 months ago # -
@EdinburghCycleCam There's no functionality to lke your reply, so 'like'.
Posted 6 months ago # -
The original poster asked if contributors had near death experiences from left turning motorists. Not quite as dramatic as this, but I regularly see drivers who will happily change lane without checking for cyclists or other road users. This seems to be prevalent on roads where a bus lane ends just before a junction (with two traffic lanes at the junction). At the end of the bus lane drivers will drift across to the inside lane to go straight on without checking or looking and as its a bus lane and they do not see a large double decker, assume it is clear.
I regularly encounter this behaviour on my cycling commute at the junction of Commercial St and The Shore in Leith. Heading eastwards in the bus lane where it ends, drivers will traverse across into my path without so much as a glance into the nearside mirror. It can be seen here in Google Streetview
Most of the traffic is going straight on at the junction and wants to get over to the left lane with the right lane for turning right. The white van visible is taking the trajectory described. It has improved a bit from when the Streetview photos have been taken. The road was retarmacked and road markings remade making lanes clearer. I have noticed some drivers checking mirrors. Experience and anticipation deals with this but it is telling how many drivers assume without checking
Another location where this happens is junction of London Road and Abbey Lane heading east. Right turning traffic can form a queue in the right hand lane and drivers wanting to go straight on will just simply turn into the left lane without looking.
I wonder if the deterioration of road markings contributes to this?
Posted 6 months ago # -
I suspect it is more to do with the laziness and lack of caring that has crept in to driving these days. People can't even turn right properly nowadays!
Posted 6 months ago # -
The problem is, there is nothing to eliminate incompetence or negligence from the "driving system".
There's very little likelihood of being caught for any infringements, and even if you kill someone you'll probably only get a slap on the wrist.
There's no meaningful or regular testing either
Posted 6 months ago # -
People can't even turn right properly nowadays!
Or left, even when there isn't a cycle lane there. It's all too typical to encounter drivers who slow down and indicate left*, then swing out to the right a bit before actually turning left. That's pure laziness, done in order to avoid having to turn their power-assisted steering wheel a few more degrees to the left. (It's also potentially a risk for anyone who might have decided that it was safe to overtake a left-turning vehicle, if that vehicle suddenly veers to the right in front of them.)
* In that order, which of course is the wrong way round - see 'The System of Car Control' chapter in Roadcraft.
Posted 6 months ago # -
With the name "Broadway" in the streetname, suggesting a roadway intended to cater almost solely for motor vehicles and with quite a wide width encouraging speed, Northfield Broadway does not spring to mind as exactly a location for considerate driving. Nevertheless despite witnessing almost daily examples of incompetent driving, there are considerate careful drivers out there who do drive to test standard.
Cycling home yesterday along said boulevard, a driver who was a couple of car lengths ahead started to indicate to turn left into a side street. I was rather pleasantly surprised when we paused and waited for me to pass. Obviously someone who has familiarised themselves with Rule H3 of then Highway Code and made good use of the nearside mirror.
Posted 6 months ago #
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