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“Edinburgh city centre Future of Princes Street and George Street up for debate”

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    There are CCE threads on GSt & PSt.

    Now there seems to be the need for an ‘all embracing one’…

    Transport and environment convener Stephen Jenkinson said he had now asked officials to come up with a new strategy, embracing Princes Street, George Street, the "cross streets" running between them, and St Andrew Square and Charlotte Square.

    He said: "All the projects are linked. We need a masterplan, potentially bringing together all the city centre projects into a programme of works to be considered by the committee.

    https://archive.ph/2026.03.11-082428/https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-city-centre-future-of-princes-street-and-george-street-up-for-debate-5627427?ref=edinburghminute.com

    Posted 4 months ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    Leading urban planners Gehl Architects have warned Edinburgh council chiefs that drastic action is needed to transform the fortunes of Princes Street, after labelling the city centre shopping hub ‘a big bus station’

    https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/archive/gehl-edinburghs-princes-street-is-big-bus-station

    (2011)

    ThisIsEdinburgh

    Posted 4 months ago #
  3. neddie
    Member

    Just one more plan will fix it

    Posted 4 months ago #
  4. neddie
    Member

    After 5 years and a few million quid spend on consultants, waiting for the "this is too large and expensive, let's break it down into smaller, more managable chunks"

    Repeat ad-infinitum

    When was the original City Centre Transformation? 2005? A mere 21 years ago... and no progress

    Posted 4 months ago #
  5. Morningsider
    Member

    I think the best thing any cycle campaigner can do is to hammer home the need for an "interim" safe route linking the two halves of the CCWEL. Secure that and then folk can choose whether to engage with discussions on George St and Princes St.

    Until such a route is provided, the city centre remains a cycle infrastructure desert and effective no-go area for many (potential) cyclists.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  6. neddie
    Member

    100% what Morningsider said

    Posted 4 months ago #
  7. gembo
    Member

    It is almost like the politicians have no skeletons and are just mush?

    Posted 4 months ago #
  8. bakky
    Member

    “CCWE_”

    Posted 4 months ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    Posted 3 months ago #
  10. Frenchy
    Member

    23/01417/FUL | "Redevelopment including demolition for hotel use (Class 7) with ancillary bar /restaurant facilities and retail use at basement and ground levels including associated alterations and extensions."

    In case anyone was wondering.

    Posted 3 months ago #
  11. gembo
    Member

    What will they do with those rare tiles halfway up the wall on RHS?

    Posted 3 months ago #
  12. acsimpson
    Member

    The same as happens to the unusual wallpaper patches on the left?

    Posted 3 months ago #
  13. pringlis
    Member

    This is from Edinburgh Planning via Facebook group Edinburgh Past and Present (Archive.is link).

    By way of an update, the archaeology consultant from the developer has been able to confirm that the tiles have been fully recorded, left in-situ, and there are not plans for the tiles to be removed during demolition. We’re now in discussions with the developer about future plans for the tiles. Preferably they’d be retained and made a feature of within the building, but I cannot guarantee this as it will depend on multiple other factors if this can be achieved

    Posted 3 months ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

  15. Tulyar
    Member

    I documented the delivery of Edinburgh Tram on street section from Haymarket to Waverley and compared notes with those reviewing the delivery of contemporary work in Blackpool (the extension to the South & new Squires Gate depot) Plus the steady rolling programme of extensions to Manchester Metrolink, including the Airport extension - delivered ahead of time and on budget
    In 1999, working with ORR and based on my experience on pavement construction, with embedded rails I helped to revise the standards from 1870 Tramways Act, to deal with the problems that had plagued the 4 early 2nd generation tram systems in Manchester, Croydon, Sheffield, and Birmingham. All had big problems with rails coming loose plus the notorious Roe vs Supertram case. This saw a much improved system used in Nottingham which has lasted well for over 20 years
    Sadly Edinburgh's contractors/project managers failed abysmally in how they built the Phase 1 track between Haymarket and Waverley (South St Andrew Street) with many details that ORR inspectors remarked on as poorly delivered, and I've highlighted to BroughtonSpurtle & Arellcat as we toured this section
    Right at the start this project invited problems, by digging out the original road structure which had over 200 years of compaction and stabilsed ground over a deep bed of glacial clays and gravel sitting on a layer of fractured shale, which the plentiful records of core logs drilled long this route, that showed water present along the valley of Princes Street Gardens (the former Nor Loch) and other clues like the original Canal Street Station at the summit of Scotland Street Tunnel, and its water issues
    This issue immediately delivered a need to redesign the on street track with a concrete top slab extending around a foot outside the rails when the original design of tarmac just fell away from the rails (Tarmac as almost everyone finds out ! does not stick to steel and being a flexible pavement will just slump, crack and fall apart)
    Hence the redesign added the dyed black concrete shoulders extending out from the edge of the rails
    This still failed to address the seriously degraded stability of the ground both under the track slabs, but extending across the carriageway pavement on either side leaving a steady trail of steel road plates (a massive hazard for cyclists) with street ironwork requiring continual repairs as valve and access chamber covers come loose, and the carriageway sinks, at one point the Westbound lane at the Scott Monument had sunk 6 inches creating a huge puddle right at the bus stops
    In Manchester the Joint Venture team had developed a robust control on project costs by testing the ground underneath the track with standard California Bearing Ratio and Vane Tests for soil strength and cohesion before pouring the concrete, with allowances & daywork rates for remedial work where soil weakness was identified
    By contrast almost every load transfer joint between Haymarket and Waverley has cracked, with lumps of concrete becoming detached and patch up repairs
    Here's a recent photo of the seriously dangerous 2" step where the concrete of the track slab has broken off and rotated right at the Junction for Castle Street
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/h52/55124388436/in/datetaken/
    One solution that can cure a raft of problems with the current tram is to complete the work planned 130 years ago by the Caledonian Railway, digging a tunnel under Princes Street, generally easy through easy to dig material from Haymarket Yards to the North Bridge, and removing the conflicting movements of trams, at a high frequency, where all the routes converge between Lothian Road (Queensferry Street) and Leith Street/Regent Road (or North Bridge)
    To build this tunnel the side walls would be core piled and the 'umbrella' system used in 1963 to carry out the construction with traffic running over the top as it did for Oxford Circus Station, and the excavated material going out via Scotland Street Tunnel to the Water of Leith for land reclamation
    The 2 key stops on Edinburgh Trams would be better located at Lothian Road/Charlotte Square and Waverley Market for the railway station, and a relocated central coach station, extending the underground chamber to the North for coaches (& some buses) - all electric - in a combined interchange with routes coming in from Queen Street or sharing the access with trams
    This can deliver a great all weather shopping street along Princes Street with direct access to trams plus Waverley Station plus long distance coaches & bus services using a bus station built under George Street (in a trench dug along the centre where car parking is currently located (and can be closed in stages to build the chamber below, with access from Queen Street which runs at a lower level

    Based on the indications for Princes Street George Street is largely a raised beach of weaker soils where digging out between core piled walls can provide these underground facilities with the public space above

    To deliver this needs a robust umbrella project that can pull together the diverse interests as a coherent common interest for Edinburgh city development. There's the challenge?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

  17. gembo
    Member

    I cycle on Princes St for possibly fifty metres coming out of St Andrews Sq then going down to Waverley. I have a line I take at the lights over to the far side of the tram tracks so I am not crossing them in traffic. that is it for me tho as the street is whacked. spokes have noticed as many cycle on Princes Street as George St which to me is only semi-whacked.

    I would say calling something Ambitious Pragmatism is oxymoronic. Like that is just my opinion man. I vote for the Richard Murphy redesign. If I get a vote. do I get a vote?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

  19. ejstubbs
    Member

    From the pictures I've seen so far I fear that the historic staircase with its stained glass, and the Gladstone Library will have been lost.

    Funny how listed buildings seem to have a tendency to catch fire after they are bought by a developer...

    (And of course it must be a complete coincidence that the tenants of the ground floor nothing-at-all-to-do-with-money-laundering-honest-guv retail premises had all left recently.)

    Posted 4 weeks ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

  21. gembo
    Member

    He says definitely Global Warming not an insurance job

    Posted 4 weeks ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    Meanwhile on George St, very slow moving wall of buses

    Posted 4 weeks ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    Drone photos

    https://www.facebook.com/61556114806724/

    Posted 4 weeks ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

  25. chdot
    Admin

  26. chdot
    Admin

    building ‘It will likely be a gap site for sometime to come’ - property insider

    But the source added that the economics of the site would have improved as a result of the fire because there would now be fewer restrictions on what a developer is allowed to do

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/princes-street-fire-developer-behind-hotel-and-pod-hotel-project-at-former-debenhams-store-could-quit-site-8790378

    Posted 3 weeks ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

  28. Yodhrin
    Member

    @chdot

    But the source added that the economics of the site would have improved as a result of the fire because there would now be fewer restrictions on what a developer is allowed to do

    Yeah they really should close that loophole. Put in a clause for listed buildings that if they mysteriously burn down then the owners are required to undertake a full accurate restoration of the listed features. I know the conservationists will say "what's the point" and "that's just pastiche", but it's not about what was there, it's about making it too costly to pull the scam in the first place.

    Posted 3 weeks ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

  30. chdot
    Admin

    "It is a fluid situation and it will be changing, sometimes hour to hour."

    He added: "Once we've got a date for length of time for this, that will determine whether the upcoming closures, for example of George Street for the festival, has to be a consideration or not."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5yz1w5p66go?ref=edinburghminute.com

    Posted 3 weeks ago #

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