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South Sub concept question

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  1. Yodhrin
    Member

    Dunno if it's the site in general or just me but search is borked and this detail has really been boilin' my noggin so I'll just ask: I've read a lot of the bigging up of the South Sub tram-train notion recently, especially of its comparatively low cost, but what I can't find is any details of how the actual tram and train linking up is supposed to work. There are vague allusions to "they'll join up at Murrayfield" but...how? The tramline is on the wrong side of Haymarket Depot and the Western Approach Road, it seems like linking the tram to the South Sub would require a complete rebuild of Murrayfield Station and significant demolition of the Blandfield Works site, plus the closure of Roseburn St(Murrayfield won't be happy about that) and work to lower it under the railway bridge(which would depend on the famously cooperative Network Rail...).

    Which would be fine, but isn't really in line with the "cheap and easy" shtick that's being used to push the South Sub concept over other tram options for the city. Am I missing somewhere where this has been explained in detail in a way that makes it all line up?

    Posted 2 months ago #
  2. pringlis
    Member

    Slide 25 onwards here has the various options they propose: https://capitalrail.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/Tram-TrainED-South-Sub-1.pdf

    Not sure how feasible these really are, but a flyover is one (expensive) option they propose.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  3. Yodhrin
    Member

    Thanks that's a much better overview than I was able to find, and seems to confirm my suspicion that people in favour are rather significantly downplaying the issues.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    “rather significantly downplaying the issues“

    As ever with grand infrastructure projects they usually start with ‘lines on maps’.

    Generally speaking Capital Rail Action Group people are serious/sensible.

    Which isn’t to say they ‘have thought of everything’ or ‘have all the answers’.

    There’s optimism, wishful thinking, engineering, cash and politics…

    Tram trains for Edinburgh is not a new idea.

    Originally (I think) a ‘cheap’ way of getting a passenger service back on the South Sub. ‘Industry’ objections were ‘too many coal trains’ (no more), ‘too difficult to mix heavy rail with light’ (perhaps an exaggeration), ‘capacity at Haymarket’ (which may have improved with the work in recent years - and led to various alternatives).

    Whether it’s a ‘better idea’/use of money than extending the current tram ‘system’ or providing much better walk/cycle infrastructure will be debated for years.

    Of course all of those would be possible (well more likely) with road pricing…

    Posted 2 months ago #
  5. Tulyar
    Member

    The Western Approach road cuts a huge swathe through towards Lothian Road with 3 heavy rail connections & land that can be re-worked especially where the Slateford stabling sidings are & the original Caledonian Rqailway trackbed was still providing road access to The Slateford Yard along the original Caledonian Railway lines from Carstair/Shotts &c to Princes Street Station

    I need to do some checking on the tangle of embankments and old station sites that weave all over the West side of Edinburgh

    The residual embankment that parallels Russell Road still has the potential to restore an overbridge of the main route at the exit from Haymarket Depot and with the advantage of light rail/trams to use far more severe curve radii both horizontal and vertical and rail alignmemts & profiles plus lower axle loads (8-9 Tons vs 25 Tons for rail) The detail of flange and tyre profiles, was the topic of research in 1990 by Manchester Metropolitan University but this is equally reflected in how a heavy rail line needs to be modified and the tram wheelsets also modified to run tram trains

    The tram derailment at Eastfield Avenue (on EDI site) after the collision with the long stay car park shuttle bus highlights an issue here, where tram tyres have reduced conicity, and larger back to back distance on the flanges. The 2008 Croydon tram crash (bus driver collided with tram becuase the changed traffic signals (from 1 day earlier!) had not been properly risk audited, and bus driver read a green signal on opposite side the tram track rather then the red signal directly ahead of the bus. RAIB has a report but not a formal investigation. The bus derailed the tram wich cuased it to run away and crash into a shop, The bus crashed into another shop & a passenger died when ejected through the window of the upper deck in 2008 this highlighted the hazard of buses & coaches having toughened glass windows rather then laminated glass, and this was a major factor in the death toll from the 2016 Croydon tram crash when the windows fell out & passengers were ejected

    This means that points and check rails for tracks shared between trams and trains, need to have extension plates to engaage with the added thickness that has to be specified for the wheels on all trams, so the trams used for any tram train will need new wheelsets of these can be fitted to the current fleet

    The other issue is that trams are operated by line of sight rather than block signalling with minimal regulation of movements, and other heavy rail operations can include approach release speed control plus the brake and power shut down as the right side failure when drivers fail to respond to vital signals

    The lack of block section signalling & related protection saw 2 tram collisions in close succession at St Peters Square in Manchester, and I've been slightly concerned when looking out from the rear of trams in Birmingham and Manchester to see the following tram powering along at 50mph and only relying on the tram driver to stop before ramming into the tram I was on

    In June 2016 the lack of a central control system with 3 separate bus operators on the Dunstable busway saw a 50mph rear end crash that put 19 people in hospital after a Centrebus driver failed to stop before hitting a Grant Palmer bus that had broken down, and shoved that bus 30 metres with the impact

    So there will be many details to deal with when running trams on heavy rail systems. Not impossible but with the greater delivery of competent risk management for the railway compared with that clearly not (yet) seen with a road transport culture we have some big shaking up to deliver

    For the best action the entire on street section of the original tram route, between Haymarket and Waverley should use the gound survey cor logs from the Caledonian Railway's project to build a 2-track railway UNDER Princes Street, which @arellcat helpfully researched. This can be delivered without having to close any of the roads for extended periods by using the system used in 1963 when Oxford Circus Tube station was built under the cross road (Oxford Street/Regent Street) as traffic continued to run over a steel umbrella

    By running the trams under Princes Street the delays & conflicts with other surface level traffic are eliminated and the connections for the radial network connections made much simpler.with a multi track junction alongside Waverley Market to emerge in the centre of Leith Street Eliminating the messy detail around Picardy Place and going over, or under the London Road junction near Elm Row

    The spur to the South can rise up in the centre of North Bridge before the historic span over Waverley Station

    Much more to describe in detail elsewhere

    Posted 2 months ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    “By running the trams under Princes Street the delays & conflicts with other surface level traffic are eliminated and the connections for the radial network connections made much simpler.with a multi track junction alongside Waverley Market to emerge in the centre of Leith Street Eliminating the messy detail around Picardy Place and going over, or under the London Road junction near Elm Row”

    All true of course

    But ThisIsEdinburgh/Scotland/UK

    Posted 2 months ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    And the manifesto also promises to commission a feasibility study on reopening the South Sub rail line to passenger services, using tram trains.

    Asked about the party’s apparent willingness to commit to financial backing for the South Sub but not the tramline, Mr Swinney said: “There's a shared interest in making sure there's a strengthening public transport network because that is what we're going to need to help us to decarbonise transport and get to net zero. That type of shared agenda will help us to make the progress we're required to make, so I'm very happy to explore all these questions with the city council.

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/holyrood-elections-2026-john-swinney-on-edinburghs-new-tramline-reopening-the-south-sub-and-snp-seats-at-risk-8498759

    Posted 2 months ago #
  8. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    I think running trams under Princes Street was suggested as part of the first tram line (which is actually Tram Line 2?). It was dismissed (on cost grounds no doubt - how did that work out?). I think that ship has sailed unfortunately.

    Virtually all continental light rail projects are tunnelled through city centres in my experience.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  9. Arellcat
    Moderator

    What @Tulyar refers to in the context of the Caledonian Railway is explained in this news article:

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/heritage-and-retro/retro/the-forgotten-plan-to-build-a-subway-system-under-central-edinburgh-3107348

    and this video:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Flash Videos

    (Abbie has loads of interesting transport videos on her YT channel)

    As far as I can tell, the alignment of the CR's route, including the Princes Street tunnel, was part of a CR Private Bill proposal in 1889. National Records has the original plans, apparently. The tunnel part was sufficiently objected to, and during the committee stage was removed from the scheme and so never went to Parliament and so was never part of the CR Act 1889, nor the CR Edinburgh & Leith New Lines Act 1891.

    Shame, really. Edinburgh could have been 'world class' and 'iconic' and stuff.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  10. Tulyar
    Member

    Thanks for the video @arellcat

    The BGS (online and the records at Kings Buildings has the core logs for a substantial series of surveys the length of Princes Street which also confirm the stupidity of the way the current on street tram tracks were built and continue to provide a significant cost & liabilties for pavement condition and maintenance

    When the tram tracks were built the entire carriageway was stripped out from Haymarket to Waverley bridge with the undelying ground (subgrade) recorded by the core logs as alluvial (glacial) clays & sands lying over fractured shale, which was generally saturated, as a raised beach alongside the Nor Loch that filled the valley beside the volcanic plug that deliverd the plug & tail formation of Edinburgh Castle and the Royal Mile down towards Holyrood Palace

    The removal of the 200 year old pavement destroyed the compaction & stability of the carriageway for the whole distance and this is clearly visible with every load transfer joint cast between each section of the upper track slab fracturing with lumps of concrete falling out & patch repairs, plus the steel frames of chamber, and valve covers for the whole distance needing continual repairs including the use of steel road plates, some in place for over a year, plus a section of Princes Street - the Westbound lane near South St David Street sinking by around 6 inches

    My work in 1999 to revise the 1870 Tramways Act was a vital detail urgently required to deal with the problems of Manchester, Sheffield and Croydon tram systems as the rails collapsed into the carriageway pavements. From this and work with the Joint Venture contractor building the extension in Manchester we delivered some key changes - which were NOT adopted for the first stage of Edinburgh Tram construction, and resulted in the urgent need to strip out & reinstall the on street track along Princes Street, and still get it wrong!

    The Manchester teams were like the Network Rail Scotland team building each stage of the EGIP project to improve on estimated costs and delivery schedules, as each small extension had the practice from the preceding work

    In Manchester before any track slab was cast, the ground strength and stability were checked with remedial work delivered before the final track was laid - for the engineers this used the day work allowances for work after testing tor California Bearing Ratio (load bearing) and vane tests (soil cohesion). Indications suggest that ground conditions were not remediated sufficiently after the compacted upper layer was stripped away - I had this problem in Glasgow when we built a ramp down through the old railway embankment, built up with silt dredged from the River Clyde & Docks and capped with a 'skin of furnace slag and slack coal...stables as long as you didn't dig a hole through it!

    However we do have a way to dig a tunnel all the way from North Bridge/Waterloo Place to Haymarket Terrace/Haymarket Yards, whilst keeping the roads open with a system proven in 1963 , when the new station was built at Oxford Circus underneath a steel umbrella which was built in a Bank Holiday Weekend. Back in 1974 the firm I worked for made long-wall mining kit with roof supports which could be the system to build the Princes Street Tunnel, that can include an all-weather shopping street and a collonade for crowds to have shelter when the Castle and gardens feature in the spectacular Son et Lumiere events which Edinburgh has a reputation for

    Paying for this .... well lets apply the economic model from Henry George which delivered the railways between 1722 and 1923, and whole new towns like New Lanark with private money

    Heres the 'Umbrella film'

    https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/50-years-ago-a-huge-steel-umbrella-for-oxford-circus-tube-station-8955/

    This project can use the same steel umbrella for a second stage digging a cavern UNDER George Street to relocate the current St Andrew Square Bus Station, as buses & coaches are increasingly 100% electric so that an underground bus station doesn't have the diesel fumes to deal with

    Itws drastic & radical, just 6the sort of work that Scottish engineers like Arrol, Baker, McAlpine deliverd in their day, which still stand & remain in use

    Do DM for developing this - |I'm seriously under resourced to deliver material & welcome opportunities to reprise the mentoring I used to do with undergraduate engineers & Scottish Universities....

    Might even hire @arellcat for her helpful research & a few other CCE co conspiritors!

    Posted 2 months ago #
  11. neddie
    Member

    we do have a way to dig a tunnel all the way from North Bridge/Waterloo Place to Haymarket Terrace/Haymarket Yards

    OK, so we're going to dig a Princes St tunnel...

    But what makes you think the ground will be any more stable underneath the tunnel? Surely the tram tracks there will run into the same problems of glacial clays, sands, shales, etc.?

    And that substrate will also have to bear the load of whatever structure is put above it to support the carriageway!

    Unless there is bedrock there, then the whole structure is going to sink into the ground, in an even worse way than today.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    “which was generally saturated, as a raised beach

    The removal of the 200 year old pavement destroyed the compaction & stability of the carriageway for the whole distance“

    Didn’t help that there were ‘biblical’ levels of rainfall at crucial stages

    And all night working to (pretend to) keep “on time”

    Posted 2 months ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    “digging a cavern UNDER George Street“

    I thought George St was/is solid/hard rock - which was why the underground car park idea was abandoned(?)

    Posted 2 months ago #
  14. Tulyar
    Member

    @chdot there's a useful summary of the geology for Scotland Street Tunnel as it drops at 1:27 from the upper end built in to Waverley Market

    The upper section is described as blaes & clay to a depth of around 49 feet under St Andrew Square witha line of vertical shafts sunk along Dublin Street & Scotland Street to build outwards from each shaft

    Looks very much like this line of blaes runs E-W under George Street, which would align with the way it was delivered

    Posted 2 months ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    Ta

    Posted 2 months ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

    Previously

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/plans-for-underground-edinburgh-car-park-1590476

    (Says nothing about geology)

    Posted 2 months ago #
  17. Tulyar
    Member

    @neddie the option of piling down to a stabilising point aligns with how the Forth & Clyde canal was built towards Twechar (buuilding the canal bank on the North side, until it stopped sinking, and the water was held on the south side to flood the space & form the canal then & WHL was built across Rannoch Moor building a wall/foundation that is allowed to keep sinking until it hits point of load balancing to deliver a stable base

    A very old construction technique for building roads across boggy land, laying a bed of branders (willow staves) with a layer of sheep dagg then a layer of stones .. & repeat

    Posted 2 months ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

    Chat Moss threatened the completion of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway, until George Stephenson, with advice from East Anglian marshland specialist Robert Stannard, succeeded in constructing a railway line through it in 1829; his solution was to "float" the line on a bed of bound heather and branches topped with tar and covered with rubble stone.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_Moss

    Posted 2 months ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    Edinburgh council is to press new Transport Minister Stephen Flynn to fund a feasibility study on reopening the South Suburban railway with tram-trains, as the SNP promised in its election manifesto.

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-south-sub-council-calls-for-promised-feasibility-study-on-tram-trains-to-start-within-six-months-8639875

    Posted 1 month ago #

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