But only if you leave at 5.40
Interesting table from yesterday's Sunday Herald
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh
Train to London in 4 hours
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Posted 14 years ago #
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I think that highlights how necessary air travel is. If you work on the (slightly shaky) assumption that all the people who travelled to London needed to go then you'd need an rail system 4-6 times as efficient to move the same number of people.
That's either a high speed system so more people can be moved on the same volume of line and rolling stock.
or
Another "normal" speed line since the current one is approaching capacity.Any thing else is just tinkering round the periphery, longer trains and platforms could only add a 20-30% before both got ridiculous. Current line speeds can only be increased a little (see west coast upgrades"). Neither of these options are cheap even high speed rail would struggle to match the times unless your specifically going to the city centre. Also some of those 6m people will be getting onward flights so the train is never really going to be an option.
Posted 14 years ago # -
Steveo makes a good point.
It is possible to run the East Coast line at 140mph - the rolling stock is more than capable of that and they experimented with the neccessary alteration to signalling in the late 80s / early 90s. They problem is that it's only possible by clearing an extra block of empty line ahead of the high-speed train, thus reducing line capacity for slower, stopping services. The West Coast line was going to use some fancy-pants dynamic block system that in the end proved vastly too expensive and complex and was never implemented.
We have (I think) the most restrictive loading guage for a standard guage mainline railway in the world, so double decker trains are not a reality and there comes a point when you can't add any more cars to the train without running off the end of the platform. Perhaps we could do away with the pointless charade of "first class" (less peasants, free crap tea and coffee)carriages and restuarant cars (places where you can eat overpriced microwave meals on a china plate, people will realise that you *can* exist for more than 4 and a bit hours without a microwave meal on a china plate). We could probably add an extra 10-15% capacity to the existing trains that way. Maybe we could also revisit how a 60-foot long driving van trailer on the east coast line only manages space for a miserable 5 bikes? You can get more on the North Berwick train in a fraction of the space.
The planned dedicated high speed railway looks to all intents and porpoises like it is intended to make it marginally faster to get from the cities "oop north" (or, South of centre if you look at a map) to London. Tagging on some promises about a route zig-zagging back to the east coast as an afterthought to keep the mutinous Jacobites placated.
Posted 14 years ago # -
Stevo - line capaicity on the East Coast Main Line is stretched at the southern end and new lines are probably needed down there. However, a real lower cost soultion (than high speed rail anyway)for cross-border rail will be the roll out of level three European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) signalling (nerd alert!). This signalling, where there is no lineside signalling infrastructure, works using mobile and satellite technology which transmits signalling data directly to each train. This allows trains to run closer together than at present, creating more capacity.
It would probably also allow the current east coast electric trains to run at their full speed of 140mph than their current 125mph (they weren't orignially called Intercity 225 (kmph) for no reason). These trains were designed to do Edinburgh-London in three and a half hours but can't as the current speed limit is 125mph as safety authorities consider this the fastest that drivers can safely see signals in time to take action.
I could go on - but I think I would even bore myself...ZZZzzzz
Posted 14 years ago # -
numbers look dodgy to me
Posted 14 years ago # -
I wonder how many of the flights to London were actually people going to London and how many were getting connections elsewhere.
If we had more direct flights then this could come down.
Similarly if there were direct passenger ferries to mainland Europe it would cut down traffic to Dover/Folkston (a little).
But what the heck, I've flown to places twice and the last time was in '86. I'm not in any hurry to do it again.
Posted 14 years ago # -
Am taking this down to London in a few weeks, booked a cycle place. Anyone know which train they're using on this run? Is it the ones where they hang up? and if so, will the Helios fit?
Thanks!
sara
Posted 14 years ago # -
Posted 14 years ago #
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"They carry tandems, so..."
great. would rather trust personal experience.
figure I'll be fine down, but a bit panicked about what to do if I try to catch last train and have a problem.
Maybe I'll just park it at Waverley.
Posted 14 years ago # -
"Maybe I'll just park it at Waverley"
But will it fit...
Photo Chris Fleming
(Other forms of parking are available)
Posted 14 years ago # -
Anyone know which train they're using on this run? Is it the ones where they hang up? and if so, will the Helios fit?
It's more than likely to be a Class 91 / Mark IV / "225" set. The bikes are carried in the driving van at the front/rear of the consist and there's plenty of room in there for the Helios, there's diagonally-aligned wheel slots and straps to fix them to a rack. No need for wheel hanging. They require you to have a cycle booking for it - despite the size and length of the DVT van it only takes 5 bikes. It's a long rake and platform staff can usually tell you which end of platform to stand at to be in the right place. If not, it's the one without the pantograph and that doesn't sound like a very loud vacuum cleaner.
The only other option is Class 43 / Mark III. I've never used but I think most operators have them configured similarly with bikes in the guard compartment at either end of the rake.
Posted 14 years ago # -
This is a handy resource for anyone wanting to take a bike on a train:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/2011CyclingbyTrain.pdf
SRD - if you don't have the young ones in tow you might want to consider using the Cycle Hire scheme, rather than taking your own bike:
Posted 14 years ago # -
you might want to consider using the Cycle Hire scheme, rather than taking your own bike:
Good idea, but do they have racks for panniers? I'm most likely going to have stacks of exam scripts with me...
Posted 14 years ago # -
We took the train to London a few weeks ago for a funeral. It was much more convenient than driving which would include finding and paying for parking and all the hassle of driving round south London. We were able to take a direct train from Inverkeithing to London's Kings Cross. The time in total to LKC was 4.5 hours and the boys loved in on the train. The connections through London we'rn't great but fine mid week when the Thames Link operates otherwise its a train to tube to train.
The cost was prohibitive but we bought a family travel card which gave us a discount on a years travel.
Much more friendly than flying where the POSITIVELY RUDE staff at airport security is so off putting. Plus takes around the same time if your heading to the center of London.
Posted 14 years ago # -
SRD - no pannier racks, just an odd little front basket thing. No good for carrying much really.
Posted 14 years ago # -
I'm an enthusiastic Barclays cycle hirer. The thing at the front isn't totally useless: I can get my overnight bag in without problems. It's bigger than it looks, certainly.
It's got a built-in bungy cord thing to hold things on, and (I think) is rated for up to 10kg.
Certainly a squashy bag is no problem. It would be trickier with something rigid, which would either fit with no problem or be completely impossible.
Posted 14 years ago # -
East Coast says -
"We do carry tandem bikes on board the train. Both the HST and Electric rolling stock can accommodate these types of bikes."
Posted 14 years ago # -
cool! Thanks!! will report on how it goes. Must see if I can find secure parking at destination.
Posted 14 years ago # -
East Coast. Most have the bike space at the front end luggage coach going south. The exception are the few older diesel ones coming from Aberdeen or Inverness. On these you may be put at the other end and have to hang your bike by rear wheel. (Helios isn't too heavy. Watch the handlebars spinning round though.)
Once on train you'll find a bike rack on the level with some straps to secure it against standard bike rack. I usually take an extra bungee just in case the straps they provide are in a tangle.
They like to keep cyclist guessing which end to take bikes and these trains are long!
As far as 'odd' bikes are concerned most guards aren't worried as long as bikes do not block doors. If ever any problem tell them it's compact and semi-folding and offer to remove a seat post and rear handlebar. Showing willing usually works.
I was on train last Friday with an LB bike to Newcastle - was only item in the van.
Posted 14 years ago # -
"Most have the bike space at the front end luggage coach going south. The exception are the few older diesel ones coming from Aberdeen or Inverness."
Not exactly.
First Class is almost always at the front. On 225s (electric) bikes are next to 1st.
Trains from Inverness and Aberdeen are always diesel.
Some Glasgow trains are diesel.
The 4 hour train will be a 225 - and starts from Edinburgh, so will be in Waverley some time before departure.
Posted 14 years ago # -
Some Glasgow trains are diesel.
Except I thought that East Coast no longer go to Glasgow?
Posted 14 years ago # -
It's interesting that the west coast main line upgrade cost the same, broadly speaking, as the newish TGV-Est (per kilometer) yet continental Europe ended up with a brand new line that looks like it may ultimately take trains running at 225mph - while ours does a paltry 125mph and is close to capacity...
Depressing, isn't it? Still, if UK high speed rail were to be handed as our tram "network" has been, I'd probably rather not have it!
Posted 14 years ago # -
"Except I thought that East Coast no longer go to Glasgow?"
Not yet -
Perhaps never.
Posted 14 years ago # -
They used to go across to Glasgow, we'll allow small number did. Just like a small number of west coast mainline trains used to (still do?) come across to Edinburgh.
Posted 14 years ago # -
...while ours does a paltry 125mph and is close to capacity.
They had the prototype HST up to 143mph, and I've clocked standard Class 43 stock at 131mph in normal service, with 125+ maintained over the 28 miles between Alne Station and Thirsk. When I next visit London I'll see how the electrics behave.
125mph does begin to feel pretty darn fast, but for the money, we're still hamstrung by our loading gauge and the Victorian cuttings.
Posted 14 years ago # -
And they had a stock class 91 up to 162mph - which will also easily go up gradients at its design speed of 140mph. If you let it. Which they don't. The Class 370 APT was designed for 155mph in service and also made 162mph on a test. As Arrelcat says, making the train itself go fast is the easy bit. Giving it the rails and the space to do so is the hard and expensive bit.
Posted 14 years ago # -
"They had the prototype HST up to 143mph"
Sadly, on TGV-Est they can manage over 350mph (on a demonstrator, not a production train). Again, I imagine it's not practical to run the trains that fast - for probably similar reasons. Either way it makes price parity look like a rough deal for the UK taxpayer.
Even worse, it's not even like the passenger gets to pay less to travel on inferior British trains. Apparently the price for comparison is 30% higher...
Posted 14 years ago # -
"Most have the bike space at the front end luggage coach going south. The exception are the few older diesel ones coming from Aberdeen or Inverness."
Not exactly.
First Class is almost always at the front. On 225s (electric) bikes are next to 1st.I think there are more electric East Coast trains than their vintage diesel ones. All I was meaning is that statistically you are more likely to be in van at front in Edinburgh going south. Most people expect luggage to be at the back and if you are travelling with family getting along the platform with bikes can be stressful.
I have on occasion been put into front van of diesel too as they have vans at both ends.Posted 14 years ago # -
"I have on occasion been put into front van of diesel too as they have vans at both ends."
Yes, though for some reason they are usually 'out of use', unlike the 125s here -
"Cyclists are welcome on board all Grand Central services. Space for cycles is available in the first and last vehicles on each train."
Posted 14 years ago # -
Now where have I seen that livery before?
Grand Central Railway Company Ltd., 2011
Southern Pacific Railroad, 1941
Posted 14 years ago #
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