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"Clearly the brake manufacturers think this is the way that cyclocross is going"
(20 posts)-
Posted 13 years ago #
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Ah, of course. Not only does nobody need disc brakes (except people with deficient skills) but apparently nobody even *wants* them.
The same thing happened when discs first came along for MTB, and before that, for motorbikes and cars...
Posted 13 years ago # -
I quite like the idea of disc brakes. Seems like a good idea to have brakes that stop you nice and quick. Apologies for my deficient skills. ;-)
Posted 13 years ago # -
I already have brakes that stop me nice and quickly though? Rider skills or otherwise have nothing to do with it.
Discs make sense on off road brakes where contamination (eg mud) will cause fast wear to rim brakes. On road bikes, clearly the manufacturers see an opportunity to sell pads that cost £20 instead of shoes that cost £10, of and brake systems that also cost more.
The comparison with cars & motorbikes is pretty spurious, we mostly don't use drum brakes!I'm sure lots of people will want them, some because they need/will benefit from them, some because it's a shiny new thing, some because they think expensive=better (witness full XT equipped MTB's that seldom go anywhere then appear on eblag virtually unused).
I have to say I'm not anti-discs, my Charge uses hydraulic discs and I like them, (heck my motorbike uses a large front disc), but many people seem to treat disc brakes as a magical cure all and believe they are the best sort of brake available, I would say they are an option, and in some cases the best solution, but in many cases they are a poor solution to a non-existent problem.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I think these disc brakes are being developed principally for cross bikes, so the contamination issue applies. Admittedly, if you're a world class (or just very good) crosser, you probably don't use your brakes very much, so the adding weight of discs is not going to be attractive. However, for an amateur crosser, the advantage a confident late braking on corners is probably worth looking at. Or if you want the bike for light trail riding, again it might be worth it for the confidence in stopping. Or if you want a cross bike as a multi-purpose bike to do some light touring, disc brakes may be better on those long descents where the bike's a bit heavier than normal.
Obviously, it's not for everyone, but nice to have the option.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I have to admit that I'm probably going to put discs on my Cotic X build. Part of that is down to the fact that I do hope, at some point, to take it CXing; and partly because I hate the faff of setting up cantis. I've got them on the Kaff, and they're great (I think I mentioned in PY the other day that I've had full on rear skid with the back end panniered up and loaded) - they're definitely better than calipers - but it's hard to quantify, I've just never got on with them when they're not doing the job they're designed for...
The Hope discs I have on my MTB, the issues are more to do with the levers, and I'm planning on rectifying that sometime soon. Because if cantis are a pain in the proverbial, V-Brakes would lead me to homicidal tendencies.
I'm maybe no the most patient of bike builders/fixers.... ;)
Posted 13 years ago # -
I have never tried disc brakes but I do find cantis a pain in the backside. I find them difficult to centre properly and they can be hard to find, particularly for my Surly which has stupidly narrow ones. Plus gritty squealing brakes are annoying too.
If discs take off for cross bikes then cantis will become an even bigger pain in the bum as they will be even harder to find.Posted 13 years ago # -
I have to say other than discs I'm currently using V Brakes and as they can overpower the tyres/gravity there is no power advantage in discs.
Can't remember the last time i used canti's so I can't comment on them, but in comparison to V's/discs I find the calipers on my road bike very weak.
Never had a problem so far setting up V's, just a tweak of the tension screws every so often has been fine for me. Of course I have to set up the V's on my Surly this weekend so it'll probably make a liar of me lolHorses for courses I guess.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Agree that they can be a pain in the aerosol to centre and they seem much more prone to squeal and a gritty-feeling than the doul pivots on the road bikes, but I prefer a decent pair of cantis to cheap vee-brakes any day of the week.
The ones on my tourer are a bit odd in that they don't use traditional canti blocks but use ones for vees, but that makes sourcing the blocks off the peg a bit easier.
I've never used disc brakes, but someone brought a set out on an ERC run before. They were a liability as they stopped far too hashly compared to others in a group - they were either "on" or "off" and didn't seem to be able to apply a gentle touch of brake just to keep the speed from increasing. I don't know if that was due to the brakes or the rider...
Posted 13 years ago # -
Potentially both, my cheap Shimano have a decent amount of modulation which makes me feel safer in the snow unlike the dual pivots on the roady which are almost digital. My mates hopes are excellent though, from a slight dampening in speed to a full air brake if the leavers are hauled on. The modulation means that you can keep right on the edge of grip.
On the road i doubt there is much advantage in terms of power over V's but the brakes on my mtb haven't been looked at all winter despite doing more mileage than the roady where i've had to replace the pads on the front and need fettled ever now and again.
Having said that mechanical disks won't give this advantage of low maintenance you'll still have to adjust the cable for stretch and wear. But a rotor is much cheaper than a new wheel build...
In summary, i'm on the fence though with the choice i'd probably rather disks over V's for the maintenance and DP's for power.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Just noticed these -
I bought some rear ones when SJS were selling them for about a fiver, pretty good.
I like the idea of discs but don't have a suitable bike. Can't really believe they are really 'no bother to set', 'maintenance free' etc. (though, as with many bike things, if you buy decent quality components you tend to have less bother).
As is often mentioned disc brake pads are more expensive, but do the last longer - or not (I know it must be difficult to compare objectively).
Posted 13 years ago # -
@steveo
"unlike the dual pivots on the roady which are almost digital"
Do you just mean 'in the snow'?
I think DPs are great - powerful but not just on/off. There needs to be some degree of match between brakes and levers - but not any sort of 'only use Shimano with Shimano"
A lot of braking power comes down to the state of cables (smooth/sticky/rusty!) and brake block compound - and clean rims etc. etc.
Adjustment is also an issue. 'Most' people (not on here of course...) hardly ever adjust cable brakes to compensate for brake block wear. 'Most' don't know about the simple adjusters on the end of their brake levers and/or mechs.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I think the DP's on my bike are just really bad, 105's in the post. So maybe next week i'll be able to give a better view. They really don't have any feel, at first when i pull them on they provide little difference its not until near the end of the lever that they really have an effect and at that point they can, in poor weather just lock.
Personally i'd say the biggest advantage for commuters running disks is that they stay cleaner and don't wear out the rims. Maintenance is probably a bit of red herring as you say but since you don't need to worry so much about water on the disk you can run a harder compound and still get reasonable results.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"I've never used disc brakes, but someone brought a set out on an ERC run before. They were a liability as they stopped far too harshly compared to others in a group"
I believe that's one of the key arguments* why people don't want them on racing road bikes - the effect of someone slamming on the disc-based anchors in the middle of a bunch is likely to be catastrophic.
*Obviously the main argument is that they don't look as good. ;-)
Posted 13 years ago # -
"105's in the post"
That's what they always say...
Even lesser Shimano DPs are usually better than less well known copies.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Same reason cars in India still run drum brakes. Saftey if one person can stop quickly it just causes pile ups...
Posted 13 years ago # -
I've never understood why people think disc brakes are harsh - this has never been my experience.
Think about it - why would you design a brake for a slippery off-camber rocky trail with wet tree roots at just the wrong angle, mud everywhere, and a ten foot sheer drop if you get it wrong - and make them less sensitive than a "oh no, I only have thirty feet of smooth tarmac to work with here" road brake? ;-)
However, as well as never worrying about the actual performance of the brake, it's also nice never to have to adjust them. I put a hydraulic disc on the front of my lowracer and rode over 3,000 miles literally without touching it. In contrast I had to replace the rim of my fixed wheel after one winter...
Sure, when you *do* need to really service them it's a royal pain, but I can live with that, given how long they last.
Posted 13 years ago # -
As regards the OP having another failure point in a critical system like brakes is asking for trouble!
Whats the problem with adjusting v-brakes? I like them on the cross, lotsa stopping power (unlike the center-pull cantis) and easy to maintain. Ive had V-brakes on all my bikes since 2000.
Until Now! The bent has fat discs, and for that style of bike they are ideal. My weight is right behind the front wheel so I can apply more braking force before losing traction, The speeds I regularly reach are much faster so I'm glad of good brakes and lastly its set up for fully loaded touring so the braking system is going to take some punishment in the descents (and my legs in the ascents).
When I first tried discs out (on my bro's MTB) I too found them very quick to grab, almost too powerful. But its just practice, I can feather the discs on the lowbeastie no problem now.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I have to disagree Steveo, driving to close to the vehicle in front is what causes pile-ups!
Also stopping power is actually nothing to do with the Indians vehicle manufacturers using drums, their drum brakes are fine for what they do and don't tend to get stones/grit etc caught between the disc and pads as car discs often do when used on loose surfaces, mechanics there understand them and have the spares, people know them and trust them, and so on.A well set up drum, suited to the vehicle, will stop every bit as well as a disc, however drums will tend to contain heat and so are more prone to overheating than discs, therefore on harsh stop two or three or four you are more likely to experience fade on a drum braked car. (hence no drums on racing cars)
Many people labour under the impression that discs are more common because of greater "power", actually their power is dependent on caliper design, pad material, rotor size and of course other variables. The reasons for their proliferation on motor vehicles are varied and not always due to the engineers ;-)
We still have some drum braked HGV's here at work and I can assure you that an emergency stop in one of these unladen is like hitting a wall!Good discs tend to work better than crap V's, and vice versa. I found the Avid Juicy discs a pita to get set up to my satisfaction, but haven't had to mess around with them since, but hey, if we all agreed then choosing brakes would be a very dull affair ;-)
Posted 13 years ago #
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