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SpokesLothian
Forth Bridge cost could fund cycling investment across Scotland at European levels for 45 years! FOE cyberaction http://tiny.cc/holdthatpen
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http://twitter.com/SpokesLothian/status/48135025832624128
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
"Don't sign off another Forth road bridge"
(32 posts)-
Posted 13 years ago #
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The contract for the construction of the Forth Crossing will be signed while Parliament is in disollution, i.e. there is no-one there to scrutinise it, although there will be an announcement within the next five days. In addition, this contract is highly likely to include a hefty penalty clause for delay or cancellation to the project, meaning any incoming Government is highly unlikely to be able to afford to cancel or delay it (as with the new aircraft carriers).
There is no reason why the contract must be signed in the next few weeks - it could wait until the new Parliament and Government is formed and they could take a second look at it. However, this option will not really be available.
This project is now steamrolling everything before it and aboslutely nothing (even the democratic process) can stop it.
Posted 13 years ago # -
I've never understood why public contracts always have conditions in which shaft the public. Surely it should be for us to set the terms and conditions in our favour - if nobody tenders, *then* you can worry about sweetening it.
Depressing.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Just as I found this thread I also saw this tweet @RichardHebditch Fall in support for new motorway capacity. More people think that building roads just encourages more traffic: http://bit.ly/eMkOV0
The "2010 British Social Attitudes survey: attitudes to transport" is showing that people are waking up to the fact that providing more roads is not the solution to congestion.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Mmm
"
1.6 Forty-three per cent of respondents agreed that they could just as easily cycle many of the journeys of less than two miles that they make by car, 35 per cent of respondents agreed that they could just as easily use the bus (an increase of four percentage points since 2009) and 41 per cent said that they could just as easily walk. Four in ten (40 per cent) of respondents said they owned or had access to a usable bicycle."
+ more!
Posted 13 years ago # -
Public attitudes towards climate change and the impact on transport show that Almost half (46%) of respondents were willing to reduce their overall level of car use. This is progress.
Posted 13 years ago # -
It just got up to 37% cheaper!
Are engineering cost projections always this "finger in the air"?
"Well guvner, we might be able to sort yer out for about £1.47bn, but then again it might come in at £1.62bn, I'll have to talk to me mate Dave down at the Screwfix. On the other 'and, if you talk to them muppets over at Forthspan they'll see yer comin and will be askin' I darno, £1.7-mibbys-£2.3 billion. Nah, you let me 'n' Dave get you sorted. We'll look out for yer. Be lucky"
Posted 13 years ago # -
"It just got up to 37% cheaper!"
Indeed.
Mr. Swinney was on Telly talking about 'saving' at least £200m.
He won't be giving it to the Edinburgh Tram. Though if the polls are vaguely accurate, it won't be his party making the decision.
Just think £200m for ped/cycle infrastucture...
OK, think of something else that might happen.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"OK, think of something else that might happen."
It all gets used up on the bridge after all.
Posted 13 years ago # -
The bridge will only initially cross 2/3 of the Forth and still cost more than £2.3bn?
Posted 13 years ago # -
£200m would only buy you 400 cruise missiles. We (inc. the US) have already fired off 110 of those in the last few days.
Even the £30,000 to fuel a Tornado would buy a lot of red paint.Posted 13 years ago # -
It's clearly cheaper to drop bombs over Lybia than it is to finish the tram down Leith Walk - a great example of sensible financial management by the government
Posted 13 years ago # -
I'd check the small print on this cheaper bridge.
Does this include approach roads(!?)Whatever the price it may well be ready before trams or border railway... strange how public transport projects seem to take aeons.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Is this a done deal then?
Posted 13 years ago # -
"Is this a done deal then?"
"
RESIDENTS are threatening a legal challenge which could delay the new £1.6 billion Forth Road Bridge, claiming the project was "steamrollered" through parliament without proper consultation.Construction of the crossing is due to get under way by the summer, with a completion date in 2016. But a similar review of the Aberdeen bypass has delayed that project by at least two years.
Transport Scotland insisted it had "consulted widely" on the Forth crossing and acted promptly on feedback.
"
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/9am-Briefing-Hunt-for-man.6738283.jpPosted 13 years ago # -
steamrollered" through parliament
steamrolled? Steamrollers go over things, not through them.
I'm sure this steamrollering will cause costs to rocket, spiral and soar - alarmingly so.
Posted 13 years ago # -
The Forth Crossing Project has been divided into three separate contracts, namely the Principal Contract (i.e. building the new bridge), M9 Junction 1a and Fife Intelligent Transport System (ITS).
The contract that has been awarded is the principal contract. However, Transport Scotland have used sleight of hand to make this contract look cheaper than it actually will be. The quoted price is "£790m at today's prices", while the esimated cost of the contract was an out-turn price - i.e. what would be paid up to 2016. Construction inflation is estimated by Transport Scotland to be running at around 5.3% per annum, meaning the total cost of this contract will be more than £790m quoted.
The total estimated cost of the entire project will not be known until the summer when the other two contracts are let.
I cannot see a legal challenge being successful (the M74 was subject to such a challenge, which failed). Even still, unless the objectors are quick and lodge a challenge in the next few days then I would imagine construction will start within a few weeks.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Posted 13 years ago #
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The Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change Committee met on March 15th to discuss, at length, the Forth Road Bridge v2. Transport Scotland gave evidence at the meeting. For a transcript you can go web page or PDF. There was no sign whatsoever of the bridge being challenged, and all signs of everything proceeding apace.
When the discussion turned to public transport and modal shift (14:30 or so), Charlie Gordon (Glasgow Cathcart) and Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) tried very hard to get some sensible answers for pedestrians and cyclists for the occasions when the bridge would be closed owing to bad weather. Lawrence Shackman from TS gave some stats:
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From April to December last year, the bridge was closed to pedestrians and cyclists for only 52 hours; in the whole of 2009-10, it was closed for only 56 hours; in the year before that, it was closed for 154 hours; and, in 2007-08, it was closed for around 225 hours. The figure has, surprisingly, declined over the past couple of years ... As for the number of cyclists and pedestrians who use the bridge, I understand that, on a typical day, about 15 to 20 cyclists and 20 to 30 pedestrians cross the bridge. At the weekends, those figures rise to some 30 to 40 cyclists and 100 to 150 pedestrians, so the bridge is used quite a lot more at the weekends.When the weather was really windy, people would be expected to take appropriate measures as far as they reasonably could and plan their journey ahead, knowing that the bridge was likely to be closed. Information is readily available on whether the bridge is open, which is not always the case for some of the other crossings around the UK.
...Once we know which authority will maintain and will be responsible for the Forth road bridge — because that is fundamentally where pedestrians and cyclists will cross the Forth — a decision on some means of crossing the Forth for pedestrians and cyclists can be taken at some stage.
"So, no real solutions. If the bridge (that is, the current one) is shut in bad weather, is that to protect the bridge or its users? I can imagine some sort of enclosed or semi-enclosed arrangement, akin to the Tay Bridge's infamous high girders or the fibreglass 'elevated tunnel' walk/cycleway over the Clydeside Expressway near the SECC, that would create safe passage. Perhaps a wire mesh arrangement would minimise wind effects on the bridge, yet prevent people falling into the sea. Be a bit of a bummer if the bridge fell down while you were halfway along though. Perhaps they could leave the top off.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Arellcat - the current Forth Road Bridge is closed during high winds to protect bridge users. The Bridge itself can withstand extremely high winds.
The new Bridge will have wind shielding and is very unlikely to ever have to close due to high winds. The simple soultion to maintaining cross-Forth bike and pedestrian access when the current Bridge is closed is for the bridge managers to shuttle cyclists/pedestrians over the new crossing in a minibus. If the current Bridge is only closed infrequently, then this should hardly be an onerous duty - FETA already have vehicles capable of doing this, so it doesn't really add anything to the cost of running the bridges. I know some motorists would gripe about this service - but they will have a brand new toll-free bridge to use.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Shuttle cyclists across the bridge? I can see this happening never - forgive my pesimism. As far as not being a problem for them as they have vehs in their south side sheds, I can see the conversation along these lines.
Me "Hi I'm on the north side of the bridge, and the sign on the closed gate says 'Closed all foot traffic', can you send across a vehical to take me and my bike across please?"
Gruff FETA bloke on the other end "No", click as he replaces the receiver.
No doubt they'd tell you to go back to Ferry toll, leave your bike there and take a bus in.
Posted 13 years ago # -
In my opinion, the simple solution - if the new bridge can have wind shielding for motor traffic - is to fit decent wind shielding to the current bridge and let human powered traffic make its own way across. How much is a shuttle vehicle going to cost to run per year? Will journeys be on request? How much will the driver be paid?
If the shuttle vehicle could transport 30 recumbent trikes and tandems and trailers, plus be accessible to anyone with limited mobility, then maybe I'd be more enthusiastic. One bike is not like every other bike.
Posted 13 years ago # -
"on a typical day, about 15 to 20 cyclists ... cross the bridge"
I'd be gobsmacked if the number is as small as this. It was not unusual for me to see half a dozen in the 10 minute window that I was personally riding across - one third of the entire daily volume that just happened to cross in the same 10 minutes?
Still, maybe they have actually counted.
Posted 13 years ago # -
All we know from the TICCC was that the cyclist/pedestrian figures were supplied by FETA.
Posted 13 years ago # -
Dave - I thought the figures looked very low myself, especially given the Forth Road Bridge is part of the NCN and on some long distance commuter's route to work.
Arellcat - I don't think it is technically feasible to retro-fit wind shielding to the current Bridge, although there are plans to possibly fit limited shielding next to the towers to combat swirling winds at that point caused by the structure itself.
I appreciate my suggestion of a shuttle for when the bridge is closed is kind of weak and agree with Dave C that it probably wouldn't work in practice. However, if the bridge is only shut around 50 to 100 hours per year then it shouldn't really cost much to run as it would only be a small part of someone's job. The bridge staff are used to dealing with incidents on the bridge at zero notice. Transport Scotland's alternatives are to cross at Kincardine,get a bus (no good with a bike) or use the train. I would suggest it is an improvement on that!
Posted 13 years ago # -
Posted 13 years ago #
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New Forth road bridge is a low priority (compared to other stuff) says poll:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-13029253
Posted 13 years ago # -
"
PLANS to turn the Forth Road Bridge into a "public transport corridor" have been undermined after it emerged many bus companies could choose to use the new £1.7 billion crossing instead.The existing road bridge is set to be used by buses and bikes once the new crossing is opened to traffic in 2016.
"http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Bridge-bus-lane-plans-shot.6761206.jp
Posted 13 years ago # -
I'm new here so am not sure if expressions of extreme outrage are permitted.
However, I am absolutely astonished by the figures for cycle and pedestrian crossings given by Mr Shackman of Transport Scotland.
As a regular commuter over the bridge I can confirm that they are utter garbage and I hope that cycle-related policy re the current and future road bridges is not based on data that are so hugely wide of the mark as this. I seriously doubt that FETA provided these data. There are three folk on my street in the Dunfermline area alone who cycle actross the bridge to work, while most of the staff at the legendary Sandy Wallace Cycles in Inverkeithing seem to cycle across the bridge each day. I hope he simply misread a briefing note that was in front of him at the time.
In my experience - anecdotal, I admit, but certainly closer to reality than Mr Shackman - the number of cyclists using the bridge in the morning and evening peaks has increased significantly over the last five years. Morningsider and Dave C will be surprised and delighted to learn that FETA did indeed operate an ad hoc shuttle service for cyclists just this Wednesday evening, when the bridge was closed to cyclists due to high winds. One of the FETA guys said they now do this as they have some sort of objective/target to increase cycling across the bridge, although I am told my a veteran transmuter that they used to do the same, on request, in the old days too. I counted ten bike commuters massed at the south end of the bridge as my bike and I waited a very short time to board our luxury five seat transport to Ferrytoll.
Ten out of ten to FETA for their pro-bike stance; minus several million out of ten to Mr Shackman for his limited grasp of pedalling reality in the Forth Bridgehead area.
Glad I got that off my chest.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"I'm new here so am not sure if expressions of extreme outrage are permitted."
These are the - RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
Everything else...
(I have been known to get cautious about libel and sub judice!)
Posted 12 years ago #
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