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Apologies to Mr Brooks saddle for losing my cool and committing bike rage)

(46 posts)
  • Started 13 years ago by SRD
  • Latest reply from wee folding bike

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12

  1. SRD
    Moderator

    So, flustered by encounter described in previous thread, I went straight on into intersection with newington, (instead of uppergray/duncan). No traffic there, glide into ASL in primary position. Then Mr Brooks, with pre-teen on mountain bike come around me on my left and get in front. Except not-so-wean is actually in the left turn lane, and they have an advance green. I politely ask if they're turning left, and when Dad says no (in posh, 'why are you asking me sort of voice'), I suggest he move the kid's rear wheel (actually whole bike, but I was being polite) because that lane has an advance turn. So then our light goes, there is no traffic oncoming, so we have full access to turn left, but they don't go. I can hear bloke trying to explain about avoiding the box, but that is not an issue because there is no oncoming traffic. I eventually start shouting 'go, go', because there are cars squeezing past us to the right and left, and I have my wean on back in vulnerable position.

    At which point he says something like 'what's wrong with you'? I should have said 'I'm trying not to get killed', but I just said 'I'm trying to cycle' and finally got around them.

    So, I shouldn't have lost my cool and shouted. It did not help kid. BUT, they should not have gone into what I consider the second most dangerous intersection in town, at 8.50am. Particularly annoying that they cut in front of me, but also dangerous for me. I suspect they do not realise that with hub gears and stoker, I can beat _anything_ out of that intersection. He was clearly trying to teach kid how to cycle in traffic, which is good, but then why block up road for rest of us at rush hour?

    So, apologies for shouting. It was uncalled for, but I was shook up and felt _very_ unsafe. But I do feel somewhat bad that Dad trying to take kid cycling on holidays (heading for innocent?) had his ride spoiled (and worse for kid).

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. recombodna
    Member

    " I can beat _anything_ out of that intersection." Them's fighting words!!!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. SRD
    Moderator

    To be honest, even if they'd gone slowly it would have been okay, but they were basically blocking everything, with cars edging up around on both sides, and not moving at all.

    But, I'm up for some sprint starts - just name the time and place!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. Morningsider
    Member

    They came around you on the left to get in front of you in an ASL - way would they do this, they should have sat behind you. If the dad was teaching his son to ride on the road then he was making a very poor job of it.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. mgj
    Member

    I've had cyclists do that even when my left arm was out indicating; one even apologised as he hit my arm. Undertaking is promoted by cycle lanes, and some folk just cant stop it; no doubt they'd use the weasel phrase 'filtering'.

    (And yes I am bored at work before heading for the highlands with bikes for 4 tomorrow).

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. SRD
    Moderator

    If they'd just lined up beside, or behind me, we could all have gone through perfectly safely together or in a line, but instead it was just a shambles.

    Still annoyed; still embarrassed at my reaction.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. kaputnik
    Moderator

    On a similar theme of ASL naughtiness. Twice tonight on a quick jaunt over to Homebase for adjustable wrench shopping I had cyclists creep into the ASL box behind me, on my left and then try to make a right turn from that position. It's downright stupid, just because I'm not sitting in the gutter doesn't mean I'm going to turn right.

    Second time I was pretty much sitting in the gutter waiting to go left and had still 2 tried to make a straight on from behind and the left again.

    If someone is in the box before you, you should give them space and room to make their move before blundering into their path from behind and a blindspot.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. gembo
    Member

    So is it possible to educate/train people to cycle appropriately with consideration for other road users and with commonsense? Some of what we encounter is ignorance, some is rudeness. We can teach good road sense. Can we teach politeness?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. Claggy Cog
    Member

    The word that covers this behaviour is "shoaling", it is exceedingly annoying, downright rude and dangerous. I find it is usually practiced by those who think that you're older (in my case) and therefore going to be slower than they are! And no I don't think that you can teach politeness. There are some people who actually are not blessed with any kind of road sense and they are also the types who "shoal", they are just all over the place.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. Dave
    Member

    There's nothing magic about getting on a bike that turns terrible drivers into great cyclists. They're still terrible, they just have a much smaller vehicle - and with much more manouverability, of course.

    I find this a very helpful way of looking at it. (As a group, cyclists are more likely to hold a driving licence than the general populace, strangely).

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. SRD
    Moderator

    I often pull into the centre of the ASL space when there are cyclists glued to the left kerb. I usually ask 'are you turning left'. Usually get bewildered reply that they are going straight on. Is that reverse shoaling? I usually let/tell them to go first.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @SRD - reverse shoaling? Sharking!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. wingpig
    Member

    There were lots of ASLWTF people heading north through Bruntsfield this morning. They appear to know that they're allowed to go into the red box but then they sit in them at the extreme left as that's evidently where they think cycles have to go, which they reinforce when they ride off in the gutter.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. Min
    Member

    I always just set off carefully until I know where everyone is going. Came in particularly useful a couple of weeks back when, like Kaputnik a few posts above, I had a guy pull up and wait on my left only to turn right. I'll jump past if they just sit there like a muppet when the lights change but in those cases I'll be away before they start moving anyway.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. Dave
    Member

    That's one thing I really don't understand. What's the cause of like ~80% of cyclist deaths? Left turning vehicles.

    So why do people pull up in the gutter (sometimes even standing on the kerb until the lights change)? Are they not taught to dismount with the right foot only, and to do so in such a way that they're out at least 1m into the road?

    Such a simple thing to have such a large influence on how vehicles around you are driven.

    I see it all the time around the end of Princes St especially (where there are all those lovely railings to crush against)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. Smudge
    Member

    "Are they not taught to dismount with the right foot only"

    I've not heard of that one, could be a bit tricky for a short***e like me on a bad adverse camber lol, or indeed abroad.. mind you I invariably put my left leg down because on my alternate bike my right foot is working the back brake.
    I'd prefer people taught to think and react not to obey set "rules" over small stuff like that personally.

    I promise my road position is appropriate though ;-)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Second what Dave has said. I cringed yesterday at Drumbrae roundabout (small roundabout, huge traffic flow, fast moving and 3 lanes crammed into space for 2). A fellow going straight on went up the inside of a coach in the left turn lane where there was absolutely no space for him. So much so that he was forced onto the pavement as the coach moved closer to the kerb when the 2 lanes squeezed into 3. I thought he would have learned his lesson from this close shave, but no - he carried on squeezing up. No room to pedal, he punted himself along using his left foot on the kerb, between the coach and the railings. Then pulled up on the left of the left turning bus and made a very slow attempt to go straight over.

    Absolutely crazy. Why anyone would squeeze up the inside of a large vehicle with poor visibility down the blindside is one thing - to do it at a bad junction like this and then try go straight over is just madness.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    "Are they not taught to dismount with the right foot only"

    That's one of those rules that kids are taught at cycling proficiency classes. I always tell the girls to put their left foot down so they don't get oil all over their trousers. But that sets them at odds with instructors who, in the case of my eldest daughter, were close to failing her for doing it. What's the reason for the insistence on right foot down?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  19. mgj
    Member

    A cycling forum coming round to arguing against overtaking on the left of cars; wonders will never cease. I expect someone will be along to tell us that 'filtering' is fine shortly ;-)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  20. Morningsider
    Member

    I've never heard of this right foot thing - I always dismount using my left foot! I agree about never going up the inside of a large vehicle unless you are 100% sure you can pass it before it starts moving. I quite often see people going up the side of buses I know are about to pull into a stop (esp. on Forrest Road) - if I can see this happening, why can't they?

    I think it is probably useful to teach kids certain "rules" that they can easily remember when out on the road, but really think the key is to get them looking and thinking about how best to react to the situation they find themselves in.

    As for starting on the extreme left - again, I think there are situations where this may be appropriate, but agree that it is usually wise to think like a car and stake your claim to the road, especially if you are turning right. Unfortunatley, this takes confidence in your own abilities and respect from motorists. New and inexperienced cyclists may not have the first and the second can often be in short supply. Perhaps there is a need for cycling mentors or some such for new cyclists who want to gain confidence on the road (this may already exist?).

    Posted 13 years ago #

  21. SRD
    Moderator

    I expect someone will be along to tell us that 'filtering' is fine shortly ;-)

    Well, I have been toying with idea of starting a debate -- seems to me that if bikes filter up to ASL and start as a group then traffic must flow more smoothly than if they wait one by one or even two or more at a time, in a normal queue of traffic. not only does queue get longer, and potentially back up to previous intersections, but unless all cyclists are trackstanding, then starts are choppy and slower.

    Since previous debates about filtering I've been experimenting with taking my place in the queue of traffic, only to have cars repeatedly roll backwards at me. Obviously, I need to leave more room in front of me, but I have not been convinced that filtering is always a bad thing.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  22. PS
    Member

    I'm guessing the right foot down thing means that if you lose your balance your right foot is out to stop you falling under vehicles?

    I'm a left foot down chap myself. Probably due to using my dominant right leg to get the cranks turning intially.

    Curb filtering is pretty much a no-no for me - I try to filter on the right if I do it at all. I would only go for a left side of traffic if I was sure of the traffic light sequence and had plenty of time to get up to the front. Definitely wouldn't do it if there were any railings...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  23. wingpig
    Member

    Perhaps the right foot was deemed the foot most visible to a driver in a right-hand-drive vehicle, so that they can tell when the cycle is preparing to move off. Or something.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  24. mgj
    Member

    @PS Filtering on the right is called overtaking. On the other side its against the HC and it can get you into all sorts of badness (doored, SMIDSY'd, killed even). What's the rush?

    @SRD, if cars are rolling back onto you, you're too close to them (guide from my driving instructor was that you should be able to see the rear wheels, about 6 feet or so), and you need an air zound.

    What gets me about RLJs, filterers etc is that I nearly always catch them up when the traffic starts to move, and I'm not that fit. A bit of TLC of their bikes and a basic level of fitness is all they would need to do much better in traffic and arrive safer and sounder.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  25. PS
    Member

    @PS Filtering on the right is called overtaking.

    Depends on how many lanes there are. ;)

    I quite often sit in the primary position in a queue, but then I also quite often move up the queue if the circumstances allow - depends on the situation, but that's where using your judgement comes in.

    What's the point of an ASL if you can't work your way up to it when the traffic is stationary?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  26. Smudge
    Member

    @MGJ I was taught that filtering is moving between stationary lines of traffic, and where safe to do so, I am assured it is legal. Indeed it is part of "making good progress" as expected during advanced training/tests.

    No rush, but if I can comfortably and safely travel a little quicker than the (seemingly endless) queues of cars, why not? Better surely that I am ahead of the queue and away rather than contributing to the length of it?

    Of course any manouvre can be completed studidly/dangerously or safely, but that is the measure of the rider/driver as much as anything else.

    Another vote here for airzound in traffic mind you, just in case :-)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  27. recombodna
    Member

    I would always filter. Never seen the point in sitting behind a smokey exhaust when I could be up there at the front of the congestion.Surely that's the whole point of being on a bike? It's not illegal motorcycles are allowed to do it so why not cyclists?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  28. donnymurdo
    Member

    Message for Dave with regard to writing

    "So why do people pull up in the gutter (sometimes even standing on the kerb until the lights change)? Are they not taught to dismount with the right foot only, and to do so in such a way that they're out at least 1m into the road?"

    This may go some way to explaining your puzzlement over the way some people stop and start.

    The Scottish Cycle Training scheme taught at P7 and P6 level (age range 9 to 11yrs) teaches children to put their left foot down first. The child will then be leaning away from the traffic stream and less likely to get clipped by passing traffic on the right. It also allows for starting correctly with the right foot in the pedal ready or two o clock position. You can download the manual from the Cycling Scotland website to see for yourself.

    Hope this helps

    DM

    Posted 13 years ago #

  29. Baldcyclist
    Member

    For me it's definitely right foot down first, otherwise I wouldn't get my left foot un-cleated quick enough, and probably just keel over (at least I would provide amusement for my fellow road users - and have done in the past).

    Once upon a time if you were caught writing with your left hand...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  30. Dave
    Member

    @PS Filtering on the right is called overtaking. On the other side its against the HC

    It's worth pointing out that even the police explicitly recommend overtaking stationary traffic (you can go on courses and stuff down in London where they set up stationary vehicles - I've never heard of that here though).

    For an example see (from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8296971.stm).

    Of course, one of the great curios of the age is that we have all these cycle lanes going in, right down the death zone beside large vehicles, but hey...

    Thanks to donnymurdo for his interesting comment. I wondered whether it might be something like this (people taught to stop away from traffic - out of sight, out of mind).

    To be clear, your position on the road is far more important than which foot you have on the ground. The point of encouraging right-footism is simply that it results in a safer road position - you can't be quite as tucked away in the invisible gutter zone if you're stepping to the right of your bike, after all.

    Another great example is crossing the Royal Mile (heading south). Cyclists coming up the bus lane end up on the left when it turns into pavement, and they all sit in an obedient little line, right down the side of the cars/buses/hgvs.

    When the lights change there is enormous temptation for the drivers at the front of the queue to bolt for the open space, but in fact when the road narrows at the other side of the crossing the cyclists are suddenly contending for space with cars and buses that have all accellerated far more than they might have.

    I always sit in front of the numberplate of the lead vehicle so that this situation is prevented. After the junction has been crossed, there's plenty of room for them to pass safely in a second lane. (I also go up the right, but mainly because there's an empty right-filter lane and if it all goes wrong I can always turn right and go home that way ;-)

    Posted 13 years ago #

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