Getting more people cycling - what works « CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum

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Getting more people cycling - what works

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Started 12 years ago by chdot
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chdot
Admin

Comments below are taken from the Cambridge Cycle Campaign Twitter feed reporting some of the highlights from a talk by Philip Darnton this evening

Good turnout for Phillip Darnton's talk! #live http://twitpic.com/58d55y

Darnton: Growth in cycling in the Cycling Demonstration Towns (b4 DfT killed them off) matched original 1970s Dutch starting growth

Darnton: DfT models assumed car drivers' time more valuable than ("poorer") cyclists' time in economic models

Darnton: DfT would agree now that cycling has high return rate for investment, £3.50 to £5 for each £1 invested- highest of all modes

Darnton: Growth in childhood obesity will make cycling investment become even more and more good value compared to other transport types

Darnton: "Build it and they will come" approach only works if it's any good and goes somewhere useful: needs where, who for, and marketing

Darnton: Encouraging cycling to school: no. 1 issue is actually theft of bike at school/home, not route safety

Darnton: Brilliant story re Bradley Stoke Secondary School: new school where kids are *expected* to cycle to school: it's just what is done

Darnton: Businesses etc people who act as 'hubs' most effective way to convert ppl to cycling than scattergun approach

Darnton: What we have learnt http://twitpic.com/58ddyq

Darnton paying tribute to former transport chief Brian Smith of @CambsCC who provided real leadership on cycling

Darnton: Cycling projects need exclusive funds - VERY important, but this at odds with new government agenda

Darnton: What UK has not learnt for cycling is Consistency & continuity of investment. Dutch decided to invest & still do

Darnton: Dutch to UK: "If you want lots of cycling you have to start investing 30 years and keep going!"

Darnton: DfT scrapping Cycling England means we have to start all over again, and loss of all the people with knowledge: crazy

Darnton: Another problem we (UK) haven't solved: how to attract women to cycling

Darnton: What we haven't learnt yet in the UK http://twitpic.com/58dj2t

Darnton: Hull's problem with boy racers etc tackled by refashioning & remodelling streets; solved lots of problems & high cycling

Darnton: High turnover of transport ministers over decades is symptom of many governments' lack of interest in transport & cycling solutions

Darnton: Marketing approach to cycling means targetting the maybe-cyclists rather than the hard-to-get-started people

Darnton: Getting kids to cycle: new life skill and captive audience

Posted 12 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

Darnton: High turnover of transport ministers over decades is symptom of many governments' lack of interest in transport & cycling solutions I just started the new Chris Mullin diaries, and they remind us of this.

I disagree about 'making it a club we want to join' though. surely the point is to make it no more clubby than walkinG? or taking the bus?

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

"we have not solved how to attract women".

No comment! But if they do solve it, they're onto something!

I know you can't invest in it (feasibly), however one of the major things is the weather. It's amazing what a bit of sunshine will do to numbers of cyclists out on the streets and paths.

Posted 12 years ago #
Kim
Member

Maybe that should be stop trying to make cycling into a club that few people want to join...

A club where to have to wear a strange uniform just to get from A to B, fine if you are into that sort of thing, but most people aren't... ;-)

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

@kim don't "have" to wear the uniform, but I think there's a segment of cyclists who get into it for exactly that reason!

I've yet to cycle to work in a skinsuit...

Posted 12 years ago #
Nelly
Member

While not advocating for the parent company, the Skyrides concept seems quite a nice intro for non/occasional cyclists, limited to one weekend though - looking at their website, there is a lot going on in the Glasgow one - closed roads, kids rides, women only, etc etc.

I cant help thinking that one reason they didnt come to edinburgh was the state of the roads / infrastructure what with the trams etc !

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Much of it is obvious/known stuff to those who are trying to encourage more people to cycle, but the person giving the talk knows because of several years overseeing the Cycle Demonstration Towns in England.

Scotland belatedly did a similar thing, but watered it down by including walking and public transport.

There are quite a few references to 'economics'. I didn't realise that cyclists' time is considered less valuable than motorists - but it doesn't surprise me!

Bottom line is that investing (THAT is the word - not "spending") is cost effective. This is something that few politicians and civil servants seem to notice.

I think I was most struck by "Encouraging cycling to school: no. 1 issue is actually theft of bike at school/home, not route safety"

I was aware of the first bit, but hadn't really thought about the second - though it fits in well with adult concerns about convenient/secure storage - particularly in tenement areas.

Edinburgh has done quite well in recent years about bike security at schools. Most primaries have Sheffield racks. Some well used others less so.

BUT these have been supplied by City Development. Education (Children and Families) has always taken the line that 'how children get to school is the parents' responsibility' - so much for joined-up-policies.

Some schools (mostly secondary) have 'secure' cages. But I'm not sure if there is a consistent/working policy/practice about having them locked during the school day.

I visited a school in York more than 10 years ago (a pioneering Sustrans project) where the locking mechanism was controlled from the school office and anyone wanting to take their bike out was visible on CCTV.

Not aware if any Edinburgh schools do this.

The report of the talk finished with - "Getting kids to cycle: new life skill and captive audience", - a very sound observation.

Posted 12 years ago #
Kim
Member

@kaputnik I have no doubt that there is a segment of cyclists who get into it for exactly that reason! They don't need any more encouragement, they are already doing it, it is the rest of the population that we need to work on... ;-)

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"it is the rest of the population that we need to work on"

And easier to influence them while they are at school - not least because 'all' children have bikes.

Posted 12 years ago #
Min
Member

Get tough on driving and tough on the causes of driving.

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"Get tough on driving and tough on the causes of driving."

Sound good.

SO politically incorrect!

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"
carltonreid:

Riding bicycles "encourages social interaction"; cars lead to "social isolation." http://bit.ly/jMgk6V @BikePortland

Original Tweet: http://twitter.com/carltonreid/status/78380602981752832

"

Posted 12 years ago #
Morningsider
Member

All good points from Philip Darnton - an excellent and engaging speaker - I agree with SRD about the use of the word "club" but think he probably meant that he hopes cycling becomes an activity that people want to be seen to take part in.

However, I think he has missed a wider point. Any major increase in cycling will require a radical change in culture. At present, most people never even consider cycling as a transport option. Building new infrastructure and offering training will only take things so far. Unless most people automatically consider a bike as a possibility for any journey they are about to make then there will never be a major increase in cycling.

I'm not too sure how this change could be achieved - but a concerted effort from all levels of government, business and community groups to extoll the benefits of active travel (and to back this up with real action) would be one pre-requsite. A big hike in fuel prices might help focus minds - although it is amazing how much financial pain people will take to ensure they can still drive.

Any other ideas on culture change?

Posted 12 years ago #
PS
Member

"And easier to influence them while they are at school - not least because 'all' children have bikes.
"

Get 'em while they're young.

Like a lot of physical skills, I suspect it's a lot easier (and more socially acceptable) to get the hang of cycling when you're young.

A big element holding people back is lack of confidence. A lot of people say they would like to cycle but it isn't safe/the roads are too busy and this point of view is understandable if you put yourself in the shoes of someone who hasn't much (or any) experience of cycling.

But if you spent a lot of your youth knocking around on bikes, then you're likely to have gained an strong base of confidence to draw on and the roads aren't quite as daunting becasue the actual act of cycling is second nature and you can concentrate on what other road users are doing.

Posted 12 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

Any other ideas on culture change?

Culture change very difficult. I compared to breastfeeding campaigns in previous posts. People know it is better but still don't do it. Another good example is HIV/Aids 'education' millions is spent on this, but in fact most people know how to prevent AIDS. the problem is that that level of knowledge doesn't change behaviour.

Perhaps both of these are cases where role models particularly important. Do people see Samantha Cameron,Hollywood starlets etc breastfeeding? Ditto 'cyclists' - if people are asked to name a cyclist surely they will name Chris Hoy or someone else in lycra. It pains me to say this, but, we need more Boris Johnsons....

Posted 12 years ago #
wingpig
Member

Whilst BoJo might advocate cycling it's in danger of being tainted with the buffoonish cartoonish aspect of his decoy outer casing. We need fewer (preferably zero) Clarksons. Undoing the damage of thirty years' worth of aspirational car-advertising and the pretence of whooshing freedom and comfort it's been projecting will be tricky, especially as vehicles get ever more more padded and accoutred and hermetic.

Whilst I also wouldn't want cycling to be seen as too clubby and don't like a great deal of the snottery of cycling-culture, some of the summer cyclists around at the moment would benefit from awareness of/exposure to some of the more reasoned cycling content in the media, just so that they become more aware of things like the don't-sneak-up-on-the-left-of-lorries campaigns and to remind them that there are references to cyclists in the Highway Code.

If any of them aren't enjoying themselves (sufficiently to want to carry on once it starts getting colder and darker) or are feeling too put-upon by traffic conditions they could lighten the load on themselves and others by being less suicidal. I took a slightly different route in this morning and found that a lot of my looks and glances and checks were being caused by the presence of other cyclists behaving extremely unpredictably or unwisely, even more so than cars, perhaps due to greater manoeuvrability.

I'm looking forward to the 20mph zone to see what it does. Hopefully it'll provide a nice large realistic-seeming practice area for people to gain confidence and ability without being buzzed by motor vehicles determined to try and get the most out of their 30mph allowance.

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"Whilst BoJo might advocate cycling it's in danger of being tainted with the buffoonish cartoonish aspect of his decoy outer casing."

http://twitpic.com/55xrhp

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

Given that segregated infrastructure is deemed 'expensive' (though of course costs peanuts compared to trunk roads/motorways), and is thus unlikely to gain much more financial support than at present, then making the streets and roads safer for cyclists has to be the number one priority.

1. Extend 20mph zones to all residential areas and all streets in the city, except for major arterial routes. Marchmont/Newington/Southside is not enough.

2. Campaign for strict liability relating to road accidents, the presumption of liability being in favour of the most vulnerable road users ie. cyclists and pedestrians.

Campaigning on road safety and holding up the spectre of child deaths was how the Dutch started making the Netherlands more cycling friendly. Here in the UK, the equivalent campaigns focussed on kids/cyclists wearing bright clothes and people only crossing the road at proper pedestrian crossings...

If the politics can embrace pedestrians, then it is difficult to ignore. If it is just about cycling, then we can be written off more easily.

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"except for major arterial routes"

Why?

I suppose it depends how you define 'mar'.

Calder road - dual carriageway. Long time before anyone would expect it to be 20mph.

Craigmillar Park - Bridges corridor? 30 until Preston Street?

Corstorpine Road. 20 by the shops, 30 by the Zoo, 20 at Roseburn but 30 until Haymarket etc?

It'll be a long time before there is a blanket '20mph within the bypass', but the big question remains -

Are cars, lorries, drivers more important than residents, shoppers, people without cars?

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

It must be possible to do traffic modelling that actually gave some idea of what would happen.

I suspect that the increase in bus journey times would be minimal (with stopping services at least). I'm sure a journey time to (for instance) the Forth Bridge is more dependent on time of day, weather, 'accidents' etc. than a speed reduction as far as (say) Barnton.

The average speed would NOT drop from 30 to 20.

It might be more difficult to model the consequences - more people willing to walk/cycle than drive 'locally'. More people shopping locally rather than driving to the nearest supermarket/shed. More people giving up driving(?) because the speed reduction made it 'less convenient'. More people moving house so that they could live nearer their work?

It might be even harder to calculate the death and injury reductions and consequent NHS/social benefits. Also reductions in wear and tear on roads and vehicles etc.

Of course there is a 'feeling' that 'people wouldn't stand for' and (more worrying really) that the Police wouldn't be willing to enforce it.

So 'the public' is against things that would inconvenience them in their occasional role as 'a driver' and 'the police' are unwilling to enforce the law against 'motorists'?

Posted 12 years ago #
mgj
Member

@wingpig, you'd think that we could counter the advertising, but I suspect that the advertising industry would not want to help with that, and the media in general are in thrawl to the cash spend of BMW et al. I was part of the focus group for ScotRail when they introduced the new Turbostar trains 10 or more years ago, and when they were looking at lowering journey times to Glasgow. The proposed advertising was all about how they compared to aircraft, as if anyone flies along the M8. I told them they needed 2 images side by side; a guy on the train working on his laptop and drinking a coffee, and a picture of the M8 with a tailback. Instead they made the trains every 15 minutes and made sure they stopped at more places so that journey times went up. Then they put the price up.

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

Kelvinside.
Morningside.

Kelvinside!
Morningside!

Kelvinside!
Morningside!

KELVINSIDE!
MORNINGSIDE!

Posted 12 years ago #
wingpig
Member

Eeeninoo.

Perhaps accurate personalised statistics describing car journeys might help convince car-driving people how relatively inconvenient their journeys can be. With a nod back to the Austin Maestro, perhaps cars' trip computers could be required by law to issue (in a hectoring voice) a disparaging post-journey summary detailing the mean speed (both just when in motion (to dispel the notion of the speed limit being the achievable average speed) and including stationary periods), fuel consumption and approximate journey cost (including adjustments for driving style-related component-stresses like violent brake application), potential calories burned by walking or cycling the same distance and the calories burned by spending the journey sitting in a heated box, albeit with the odd blood pressure increase and bit of stress.

As that would never happen, perhaps thorough testing (and heavy marketing of the results of) cycle-versus-bus-versus-car journey-times for popular journeys in popular cities could be used to show how much less speedy car travel is compared to how fast people think it is. There's already the Commuter Challenge but if it were expanded to show cross-city routes as well as outskirts-to-centre it would seem like less of a novelty.

Posted 12 years ago #
mgj
Member

@wingpig, absolutely. My car always has the MPG showing on the trip computer, as my carbon guilt factor is high. I have friends who always have it showing elapsed time; never could work that out. my iPhone announces to all and sundry what my time has been when I get to work on the bike, and how many claories I've burnt off (Runkeeper).

Posted 12 years ago #
Dave
Member

@chdot - for reference, I just broke down a reference commute by car into speed zones above 20mph, and got:

20-21mph : 53s
21-22mph : 52s
22-23mph : 32s
23-24mph : 41s
24-25mph : 53s
25-26mph : 29s
26-27mph : 25s
27-28mph : 12s
28mph+ : 11s

With the assistance of a spreadsheet I calculated the time lost for each segment by going at a maximum of 20mph, and came up with just over 53 seconds.

So assuming everything stayed the same apart from a blanket speed limit change, to drive across my half of Edinburgh at rush hour would take less than a minute extra...

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"would take less than a minute extra"

Sounds credible.

About the amount of time variation caused by hitting a series of reds, being stuck behind a bus held off the kerb by an illegally parked car, etc. etc.

Posted 12 years ago #
cb
Member

Lowering the speed limit could increase traffic throughput. Is 18mph not meant to be the optimal speed for throughput?

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

@dave @cb agree entirely. It is (as a non-driver) my perception that cyclists' commuting brains work not in terms of max speed, but in terms of average speeds. However car drivers' commuting brains work in pure terms of what's the maximum speed they can drive at. If they can do 45 in a 40 zone, it means they get to work at 45mph? Right?

Maybe average speedos for cars are the answer. Very much like even the cheapest £10 cycling speedo gives.

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"Is 18mph not meant to be the optimal speed for throughput?"

For some reason I believe(d) that too, but can find no reference in Google (obviously I am asking the wrong question!)

Of course the 'simplest' thing would be for the law to change so that all speed signs would be in kilometres, so that 30mph would become 18.64kph and speed limits would only go 'back up' if the signs were actually changed (e.g. on dual carriageways and motorways - if they 'had' to).

I have just been looking at US speed limits. I knew that for a time there was a national limit of 55mph. "For approximately thirteen years (1974–1987)", but WIkipedia also says -

"
In response to the 1973 oil crisis, Congress enacted the National Maximum Speed Law that created the universal 55 miles per hour (89 km/h) speed limit.

The law was widely disregarded by motorists, even after the national maximum was increased to 65 miles per hour (105 km/h) in 1987 on certain roads. In 1995, the law was repealed, returning the choice of speed limit to each state.
"
I hadn't realised that speed limits varied from state to state. There is a comprehensive table here. Generally in urban areas the limit seems to be 25 though for "school zones" it can go down to 15.

In some states drivers are expected to stop if people want to cross the road!

Many states also have night speed limits.

"While the basic speed rule, which requires drivers to drive a reasonable and proper speed at all times, is usually relied upon to regulate proper night speed reductions, numeric night speed limits (which generally begin 30 minutes after sunset and end 30 minutes before sunrise, though this may vary by local law) generally may be established on roads where safety problems require a speed lower than what is self-selected by drivers."

This is something the UK might like to consider. Young people getting killed in rural Scotland hits the headlines from time to time.

Perhaps speed limits could be mentioned in the run up to the referendum bill - Scotland could be more continental with speed limits in kph or more like America with locally decided and night time variations? Somehow I think we are still some way off from politicians doing things that would be seen as a 'war on the motorist'.

Though sometimes public opinion can actually get politicians to change things. Do 'most people' really want high (30-40) urban speeds which mean they/children feel unsafe walking and cycling?

I've just had a quick look at the Living Streets web site, I didn't see any references to lowering speed limits - though it has a track record - "Living Streets started life in 1929 as the Pedestrians Association, set up to protect the rights of pedestrians in the new era of widespread motor vehicles. Early successes included campaigns to persuade the Government to introduce the driving test, the 30mph urban speed limit and pedestrian crossings."

Posted 12 years ago #
mgj
Member

Well my commute takes 12 minutes on bike, plus or minus 1 minute, and it does not seem to matter at all how much I get stopped by lights or slowed by obstructions until the last set of lights. I guess it just gives me time to get my breath back.

@chdot, re "Do 'most people' really want high (30-40) urban speeds which mean they/children feel unsafe walking and cycling?", there seem to be plenty of folk on this site who will happily defend pavement cycling that produces the exact same effect, which gets us back to 'in-group'/ 'out-group' discussions.

Posted 12 years ago #

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