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Buccleuch Street/Melville Drive

(32 posts)
  • Started 15 years ago by chdot
  • Latest reply from Claggy Cog

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    I was waiting for the lights to change yesterday and noticed a tiny amount of red surfacing that hadn't worn away.

    I remembered the images I 'took' a year ago just after the red had been restored on ONE leg. The more recent image was from Google, I think the other was from Bing, but has since been updated.

    UPDATE I've realised that neither image is from Google - which has street names correct.


    In December 2008 the line was "The work in Hope Park Crescent was part of the term maintenance contract but none of the other arms are currently scheduled for resurfacing. The coloured surfacing on Summerhall has not been removed, it has just worn away completely. The lining was redone recently on this arm but there was no budget for replacing the colour at the same time."

    I don't suppose anything has changed since.

    This isn't just 'cosmetic' or even a 'sign that the council is keen to encourage cycling' - it's about Road Safety. As well as wanting to have 15% of journeys by bike by 2020, CEC has "Vision Zero".

    "
    The ultimate accident reduction target must be that no one will be killed in road traffic accidents. This ‘Vision Zero’ has been formally adopted in Sweden as the basis for national road safety strategy. It is a clear, understandable and exciting long term vision. Therefore ‘Vision Zero’ has been adopted as the basis for Edinburgh’s road safety policy.

    "
    THE CITY OF EDINBURGH COUNCIL LOCAL TRANSPORT STRATEGY s6.15.6

    Posted 15 years ago #

  2. SRD
    Moderator

    I'm confused (okay, yes, that's normal:). But seriously, if you come south on Buccleuch St, there's really good red surfacing and path to front. I found it a bit strange at first as red path goes up left of turn lane, but now really appreciate it.

    (We need something like this on Dalkeith Road going south into intersection at Commonwealth Pool, where there is a left turn lane, with a straight ahead bus lane to the right, where cars cut dangerously across three lanes at once, without noticing cyclists going 'straight'.)

    Anyway is that the bit you mean that had been restored? Is it the other side (going north to Buccleuch st) that is still lacking? I avoid that like the plague...which suggests it does need something done....

    Posted 15 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    "Anyway is that the bit you mean that had been restored? Is it the other side (going north to Buccleuch st) that is still lacking?"

    Yes

    Yes


    Posted 15 years ago #

  4. SRD
    Moderator

    Nice. very nice. :)

    Posted 15 years ago #

  5. chdot
    Admin

    "Nice. very nice."

    Imagine if ALL ASLs were like that (at least once every year or so.)

    Rumour has it that something may be done may be done to Marchmont Road - but I bet it's white lining not red surfacing.

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    Posted 15 years ago #

  6. SRD
    Moderator

    SO, what do we do about the other side of the intersection? Write letters? Bring up at spokes meeting next month when council transport convenor is there? all wear red and 'die' in intersection? stealth attack with red paint?

    Posted 15 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    "Write letters?"

    It's a start.

    "Bring up at spokes meeting next month when council transport convenor is there?"

    Good idea. It's in his ward....

    Southside/Newington Ward Elected Members

    I know Cameron Rose (Con) and Gordon Mackenzie (Lib Dem) cycle. I assume Steve Burgess (Green) does, don't know about Ian Perry (Labour).

    Posted 15 years ago #

  8. Kim
    Member

    I think SRD make a very good point above about the intersection at Commonwealth Pool. The place we really need colour cycle lanes is at the complex junctions where drivers tend to cut across cyclist who are going strait ahead. This would not only help novice cyclist take the correct course but also make it clear to drivers that cyclist have a right to be there.

    If resources are limited these should be prioritised over merely putting a line down the side of the road.

    Posted 15 years ago #

  9. Dave
    Member

    Perhaps we should offer to paint them for the council, if money is so tight? I wonder how much it would cost to do?

    Posted 15 years ago #

  10. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Nice. very nice.

    Imagine if ALL ASLs were like that (at least once every year or so.)

    "...So many people in the same device" as Ambrosia once wrote.

    I wonder if anyone in CEC has realised that as more and more people -- residents and visitors alike -- turn to online mapping with aerial views for finding their way around, and indeed for planning a visit, the brightly painted cycle facilities show up far better than Streetscape would ever have it. Are there any stats that compare cycling popularity in cities with and without highly visible cycle infrastructure? And how much of a difference does it make to encouraging the non-cyclists to change?

    Posted 15 years ago #

  11. Kim
    Member

    The tourism angle is something which should be pointed out to CEC more often, is something which they seam to prioritise.

    Posted 15 years ago #

  12. Claggy Cog
    Member

    I am sure that they have got the street names completely wrong, Buccleuch st changes into Hope Park Crescent and over the lights onto Summerhall Place which then changes into Causewayside. Melville Drive therefore intersects with HPC and SP, and in any case the park (Meadows playground) would be on your right at the end of Hope Park Crescent. It is the Dick Vet on your left across the lights on Summerhall Place. Whatever, though, I have never found this junction to be a problem.

    Posted 15 years ago #

  13. SRD
    Moderator

    Yes, I am sure you are right about the names. The words in the text make sense, they just don't match the photos (I didn't understand where the photos were from anyway).

    Posted 15 years ago #

  14. Claggy Cog
    Member

    Your picture with the cyclist sitting in the spanking brand newly marked bike lanes is Hope Park Crescent, going south into Summerhall Place, past the Dick Vet on your left which has not been resurfaced as far as I am aware unless it has been in the last couple of weeks, and is a mess, as is the first section of Causewayside, with very poor bike lane marking on Summerhall Pl and no bike lane markings but plenty of potholes, and uneven surfaces with appalling utilities repairs n Causewayside. To be honest the pavement is actually not much better for the poor pedestrians on this section either.

    Posted 15 years ago #

  15. SRD
    Moderator

    Errr. yes. I go through there twice a day! I just wasn't clear about the two different ones - and why they both had the wrong names on them -- googlemaps seems to have the correct street names. But my comment very unclear. Sorry!!

    Posted 15 years ago #

  16. chdot
    Admin

    "I just wasn't clear about the two different ones - and why they both had the wrong names on them"

    I've only just realised that neither image is from Google. Both must be Microsoft related.

    They must have been taken four or five years apart.

    Posted 15 years ago #

  17. Cameron
    Member

    Thought it might be helpful to give the overall picture as per a question I asked at the Council meeting of the Convenor of Transport towards the end of last year.

    COLOURED SURFACING Q1 By Councillor Rose answered by the Convener of the Transport, Infrastructure and Environment Committee

    Question: What is the combined surface area of on-road cycle lanes and advanced stop line boxes in place in Edinburgh? Answer: There is not a full record of on road cycle lanes or advanced stop line boxes. Based on available information, the estimated combined area is in the region of 36,000 to 51,000 square metres. Though not all is coloured, the percentage uncoloured is estimated to be fairly low in relation to the range of combined area.

    Question: How much would it cost to ensure that all on-road lanes and stop line boxes are surfaced with the standard red colour? Answer: The estimated total cost of refreshing or surfacing the entire combined area of cycle lanes and advanced stop line boxes, and providing the associated lines and cycle symbols, would be between £470,000 and £660,000 at current rates. Assuming replacement every 10 years, this would require annual maintenance spend of approximately £47,000 to £66,000.

    Question: [b]Does the Administration have a plan to achieve this? a I have already made arrangements for a separate record of cycle lane and advanced stop lane installation and upkeep to be made for monitoring purposes. This can allow a prioritised programme of upkeep and renewal to be drawn up. I will be looking for this to be published as part of the forthcoming Cycle Action Plan. Finally I have asked that we use enforcement powers, in the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 (as amended), to ensure that utility companies reinstate cycle lanes to a satisfactory standard after their work, including the replacement of red surfacing.

    Cameron Rose

    Posted 15 years ago #

  18. chdot
    Admin

    Thanks Cameron.

    "Assuming replacement every 10 years, this would require annual maintenance spend of approximately £47,000 to £66,000."

    Unfortunately there are too many people within the Council (officials and councillors) who think 'that's a lot of money' and 'cyclists are just a minority'.

    This isn't about making the roads look pretty to keep some noisy cycle campaigners happy.

    It's

    A about safety.

    B about getting more people cycling (or walking)

    C as a consequence of B, there would be less traffic, less noise/air pollution. AND the roads would wear out less making "approximately £47,000 to £66,000" look like peanuts.

    HOWEVER "Assuming replacement every 10 years" is a BIG mistake - 2-3 years is more realistic - unless traffic volumes drop dramatically..

    Posted 15 years ago #

  19. Cameron
    Member

    Let me be controversial. B (and C) are more important than A. It is the health benefits - through exercise and reduced emissions where the big difference can be made. (Now don't misunderstand me - I didn't say A wasn't of importance). But the convenience and attractiveness of cycling should be the big objective! And I'm afraid the cost is certainly a constraint with competing demands from voters for all sorts of things.

    I think we underestimate the harm from asthma related illness attributable to vehicle emissions.

    Posted 15 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    That's not controversial.

    I only put "road safety" first as it is something the Council seems quite keen on.

    Yesterday's budget

    • £2million for projects to improve road safety and to promote walking and cycling

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/internet/Council/Council_tax_and_finance/Council_budget/CEC_council_budget_2010_11

    The view on various places on this forum is that either red surfaces (or at the very least making sure the white markings are in good condition) are important parts of council strategy - for safety and/or encouraging cycling - or they should be removed.

    Neglecting them sends out all sorts of negative signals.

    "And I'm afraid the cost is certainly a constraint with competing demands from voters for all sorts of things."

    I am aware of the political realities of that, but it is certainly the case that it's not bicycles that are wearing out the red surfaces!

    "I think we underestimate the harm from asthma related illness attributable to vehicle emissions"

    I think you are probably correct. It amazes me that car drivers imagine they have ' cleaner air' inside their cars - which draw air from around the exhaust pipe in front...

    Posted 15 years ago #

  21. Kim
    Member

    I don't know about the underestimate the harm from asthma related illness attributable to vehicle emissions, but I do know there is a deliberate underestimate of the levels of vehicle emissions. The monitoring stations are placed as far from the target roads as they can get lower readings. I don't think there is any will to tackle the problem of air quality in Edinburgh.

    Posted 15 years ago #

  22. SRD
    Moderator

    Obviously the cyclepaths that are also permanent carparks (example) won't need replacing particularly soon. And, as far as I'm concerned shouldn't be included in the total anyway.

    Posted 15 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    Took this today -

    So still not like this (left pic).

    Of course this junction will soon(ish) be part of the Edinburgh version of a 'super cycleway'.

    Meanwhile the 'debate' about red surfacing continues.

    It seems that the objections from the 'Streetscape' have receded. The problem with Services for Communities remain - priorities, budgets etc...

    Seems this should all get resolved in November when a report goes to committee recommending - priorities and (perhaps) budgets.

    One very real problem remains - the (fairly) artificial split between capital and revenue.

    This is long-standing and ultimately relates to "Treasury rules". Whether they really outweighs the views from Holyrood or the City Chambers is another matter.

    In short, if you've noticed quiet side streets being resurfaced - that's "Capital". The (un)painted ASL boxes are about (lack of) "Revenue".

    Or - if it has to has to be mended it's revenue, if it has to be replaced it's capital.

    Or (in a domestic analogy) If you earn money, pay tax, and have a spare grand - if you buy a bike that's capital. You can put it on your home balance sheet and calculate its depreciation.

    If you spend the same £1,000 on a holiday it's revenue - 'cos you don't have anything to show for it that is an "asset" - memories and photos don't count.

    Confused? Well maybe I got something wrong...

    In general Governments and Councils seem to spend lots on big things and not enough on looking after them.

    The thing I noticed about the photo today (top) is that there seemed to be some red chips.

    SO what about making ASLs with red chips - embedded in red asphalt (with bicycles logos made with white chips)? Wouldn't wear out in a hurry!!!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  24. cb
    Member

    "
    'cos you don't have anything to show for it that is an "asset"
    "

    So the tram is an asset then?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  25. cc
    Member

    How hard can it be

    http://hembrow.blogspot.com/2011/06/rolling-out-red-carpet-for-cyclists.html

    Posted 13 years ago #

  26. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @cc I'd settle for our roads being at the standards that the Dutch consider "worn"!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  27. Roibeard
    Member

    North bound on Summerhall Place, the cycle lane is one of the highest conflict lanes I encounter - there may be worse in other parts of Edinburgh...

    I've given up using it when turning right from West Preston Street, where it easy to stay in the main northbound lane until after Melville Terrace.

    I did try it when approaching from Causewayside this week and ended up hitting a car, before it hit me! Unfortunately when approaching from the South it isn't quite as easy to move out from the path to prevent side swiping drivers.

    I've discussed it with CEC, but couldn't offer a better solution - perhaps it needs conceded and move the lane to the left, forcing cyclists to indicate and move right to go straight ahead, which is what drivers seem to expect anyway! On one occasion a driver that broadsided me here did indeed complain that I hadn't indicated that I was going straight on. Not sure what that indication would be...

    Robert

    Posted 13 years ago #

  28. DaveC
    Member

    Looking at this junction (again - as I used to live in Scienes):

    Coming down the hill from Causewayside, I would glance over my shoulder as I approach Summerhall (from the south), signal as I pass Summerhall Sq (so as to not confuse drivers who may think I'm turning up Summerhall Sq, then get in the middle of the road blocking all traffic from overtaking me (they should be slowing for the junction, anyway) as I pass the north end of Scienes, and then slip left into the cycle lane after I pass the east end of Melville Terr.

    Now I haven't lived there for nearly 20 years and I don't regularly cycle past there in rush hour, so I may be under estimating the level of traffic.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  29. chdot
    Admin

    @cc Nice video.

    Nothing that couldn't be done here...

    "Heijmans is active in the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany."

    http://uk.heijmans.nl/About-Heijmans

    Won't be coming to Edinburgh then - though the equipment/process seems pretty basic.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  30. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Meanwhile the 'debate' about red surfacing continues.

    It seems that the objections from the 'Streetscape' have receded. The problem with Services for Communities remain - priorities, budgets etc...

    Seems this should all get resolved in November when a report goes to committee recommending - priorities and (perhaps) budgets.

    "

    Apparently this report has been postponed to February!

    Posted 13 years ago #

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