Sworn at by another cyclist this morning « CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum

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Sworn at by another cyclist this morning

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Started 12 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
Latest reply from Cyclingmollie

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Wilmington's Cow
Member

I'm almost at work, it's sunny, I'm early, I've taken a different route to normal, so I'm happily wheeling my bike along the pavement cos it's a one-way street (Semple Street) and so it's either that or ride round a loop.

A ding sounds behind me. Bear in mind it's a massively wide pavement! Pavlovian response, I move over. Then think, and comment (very nicely, honestly, not a hint of aggression in my voice) "You shouldn't really be cycling there of course...[/i]"

"P*ss iff" is the monosyllabic reply. From the middle-aged woman.

She rides down the ramp where I'm going so I ponder whether the witty repartee will continue, but alas she must have gone to the public car park bit.

Surely it's just a 'bit' cheeky to ding people out of the way where you're riding somewhere illegally - even if you think pavement cycling is okay?

Posted 12 years ago #
Instography
Member

Sure is cheeky. But dinging people to get out of the way is the same type of aggressive path 'ownership', the same type of irritation at progress impeded, that you get from drivers. It's the type of thing that makes me think there are basic behavioural characteristics among road users that are independent of their mode of travel.

Posted 12 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

Yep. none of my bikes have bells, I tend to say hello and excuse me instead. Although I guess a bell can be heard from further away...

Posted 12 years ago #
Min
Member

Oh FFS. On a shared use, ringing the bell at a polite distance and then saying "thank you" seems to be perfectly acceptable to just about everyone else on the planet. Or so I have found.

Why is riding up behind and then shouting at people the non-aggressive way?

Posted 12 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

Didn't say anywhere that I shout.... An 'excuse me' in exactly the same tone as if I was walking more quickly than the people ahead and, I presume, the same sort of volume at which you say 'thank you' when past...

Put it another way, narrow road, car behind, beeps his horn for you to move over. Wherein lies the difference?

(Threadshift within one post! Impressive!)

Posted 12 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

Should probably explain more my own personal method on sharded use paths. Simple really: slow down (the freewheel clicking sometimes makes people turn round anyway, squeaky brakes can also help...); say 'excuse me' in polite tones (not shouted - I'm going slowly enough that that's not necessary - a spoken 'ecuse me' can be heard from 10 yards easily); and a 'thank you'.

Now, using the bell, then saying thank you, retains that personal connection which helps keep the whole transaction 'human'. But all too often the bell really is just a car horn for some people - ding. Ding ding. People move. Carry on past with nary a glance in the pedestrians direction.

That's basically why speaking (not shouting) is the non-aggressive approach as far as I'm concerned.

AND, to get back to the point, dinging on a pavement where you shouldn't be riding is very cheeky!

Posted 12 years ago #
wingpig
Member

I find "get off the pavement" quite polite enough for someone cycling illegally on the pavement; I vary the tone depending on where it is and who it is.

Do you have some sort of building manager you could report this to, so that they can remind all employees to approach the building safely and legally?

On shared paths I ding from a reasonable distance just after I start to slow down, so that (if the target hears the ding) they see that I'm already slowing down. If it gets to the point where they still haven't heard by the time I'm going at their speed behind them I'll speak. I usually thank after passing.

I realise that bell use is as subject to personal choice as other things which are a matter of personal choice but I usually find at least once every time I use the Roseburn-Newhaven paths that I have to proxy-ding for someone in front of me who looks like they have no intention of warning or slowing down to pass someone who appears to have no idea that there might be other people using the path.

Posted 12 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

And again, just a personal thing, but I rode with a bell for a while (after buying a lovely Sogreni version) and found myself not using it, in favour of my spoken approach. I personally felt uncomfortable with the 'demand' the bell implied.

Although, actually, on this one the Daily Wail peds and drivers would disagree with me given they all seem to have in the list of cyclist complaints that they don't have bells.

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

What Instography said.

My knee-jerk reaction probably would have been a counter-swear at her.

I'd probably lose a fight with a middle aged woman though...

Why was she cycling a bike into a car park? Is there a secret bike rack in there?

Posted 12 years ago #
Roibeard
Member

I'm a bit torn on the bell versus voice issue too - I usually opt for a conversational level "cyclist approaching (rear)", whilst dropping to walking speed.

The kids have bells, but they tend to really give it some welly, but then again they also shout when emulating me, expecting the pedestrians to scatter...

(They're a work in progress...)

I've seen some pedestrians startled by a bell, but a voice seems less surprising - assuming the conversational tone of course!.

To be honest, I've often done neither, just slotted in behind the pedestrian until they've become aware of me naturally, just as they would a faster pedestrian. Then gently passed when space allowed, just like a pedestrian.

Perhaps it's a "like a pedestrian when on shared use, like a car when on road" idea - I'd probably bellow "cyclist approaching" or "Look out!" whilst braking hard from 15-20 mph if a pedestrian stepped on to the road... Better for both of us if a collision is avoided urgently!

Even then it's a judgement call - a startled person can freeze or go any direction, so sometimes a smooth swoop behind their direction of travel can be the best.

Hmmm, maybe best to say it's a judgement call, with no hard and fast rules, beyond civility and seeking the common good!

;-)

Robert

Posted 12 years ago #
PS
Member

As ever, whether bell-use is interpreted as aggressive or not depends on the circumstances:

On a shared path, where peds can expect cyclists, it's fine if you to ding the bell some distance away from the other users whose attention you are drawing your presence to, giving them plenty of warning.

On a pavement, chances are you're a lot closer just given the dynamics of the situation, it's probably a tight squeeze and, er, you shouldn't be there, so a ding to say here I am rather than a dismount and walk is a bit much.

Aggression is in the eye of the beholder. Obviously, if you follow it up with a "p!ss off" then the beholder's probably justified in their view.

Posted 12 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

"I'd probably bellow "cyclist approaching" or "Look out!" whilst braking hard from 15-20 mph if a pedestrian stepped on to the road..."

I tihnk I'd just about manage a 'Whoooooaaaarrrrggghhhh!' before thinking of letting the person know of the imminent arrival of a specific type of transport... ;)

Posted 12 years ago #
mgj
Member

Not having a bell, but an air-zound, I use voice mostly, for shared use, and the horn for in traffic.

Coming down MMW behind a cyclist using the polite bell yesterday and it worked in most cases as pedestrians strayed into the 'bikes too' part, but not at the bottom, where I started a skid trying to avoid a couple of unaware peds (wet, tree debris, bottom of a steep hill) and gave a quick toot.

Given the response Anth got, I reserve the right not to get out of pavement cyclists way, especially when wheeling my bike.

Posted 12 years ago #
steveo
Member

In the interests of full disclosure I have in passed ridden up that part but i changed my route to come in from the other side because it was too busy there and I eneded up walking more often that not...

Now most days i ride out the car park as described above, across the front of Exchange Place and down the lane towards cafe citron. I do this to avoid the one way and looping round Lothian Road or the fun that is Morrison Road at the moment. Its a very wide pavement and if there is an obstruction such as the big cherry picker that is often there i'll walk. But since we're not to walk on the ramp and its a good couple of hundred meters from the car park to the lights behind Exchange Place I just ride it.

Having said that i've never had any conflict with any one, given many of the people I ride past in the evening are my colleagues/superiors/building management if there was any problem I'm sure me or one of the dozen or other cyclists from my office who do the same would have been told and a email circulated. My building management is not averse to sending snipy emails around.

/dons flame proof clothing.

Posted 12 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

Interesting, you're not allowed to walk up the ramp? No such restrictions on us! Mwuhahahaha! Hmmm, this morning's lady could well work with you, hadn't thought of that, since she didn't turn into our car park.

Posted 12 years ago #
wingpig
Member

Meanwhile, in another nearby financial institution's underground car park, cyclists were recently ordered by the building manager to walk their bikes through the car park after a couple of near-misses with motor cars.

Posted 12 years ago #
steveo
Member

Could very well have been Anth, what was the bike? Although since our office is closed today due to the sprinklers flooding the electrical system its probably unlikely.

Posted 12 years ago #
Dave
Member

"I usually find at least once every time I use the Roseburn-Newhaven paths that I have to proxy-ding for someone in front of me who looks like they have no intention of warning or slowing down to pass someone who appears to have no idea that there might be other people using the path."

Although it's not what you're describing, quite often something similar happens to me me (since I don't have a bell) which I find quite annoying.

There I am, having slowed down behind someone preparatory to them either moving naturally or me saying excuse me, when someone coming up behind 'bings them out of the way' on my behalf. Of course it looks to the ped like I'm hounding them as I don't expect they really notice that my bike hasn't got a bell fitted!

I always make sure to use the whole space that opens up, slowly, so the following rider can't maintain their speed anyway, but I'm sure the punishment is lost on them.

Like Anth, I consider ringing the bell to be equivalent to sounding the horn. I don't find it necessary to negotiate a path at any speed (if you are going to overtake me very quickly, I'd rather not know about it in advance as I might step the wrong way while trying to figure out what's going on).

Posted 12 years ago #
Dave
Member

PS. following on from a recent thread, I have another word game for people to try when reading the "another cyclist did X" style complaint (however justified).

Replace 'cyclist' with your country of origin, so that it reads e.g. "Sworn at by another Englishman this morning" (other countries are available).

It's a healthy reminder that with everybody a potential cyclist, we shouldn't be too quick to out-group ourselves.

Posted 12 years ago #
wingpig
Member

Yes... although it's not illegal to be an Englishman on the footway, and not possible to instantly become a different nationality by dismounting and pushing.

"Although it's not what you're describing..."

Indeed. I'm talking about people steaming/hooning along who haven't started to check their speed despite being at least a safe stopping distance in front of me after the point when I've already started slowing down ready to ding anyway and who have often already demonstrated the passing-without-warning-or-slowing trick on someone else further back, after which I've caught them back up.

Posted 12 years ago #
LaidBack
Member

As cycle use rises so does conflict it seems.

I 'had' to give way to a pavement cyclist whilst using the toucan crossing at the Valleyfield Street end of the Meadows North path.

He said 'thank you'. Big guy on Apollo suspension bike. I was on tandem doing coop shop. He was moving at around 7mph.

More 'born again' cyclists seem to swallow the line that all roads are dangerous. Those that want cycle training to go round parked cars etc are a minority. Some I reckon cycle only as last resort and want to share their pain!

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Saw this on Saturday -

Should have gone back to get a better shot, but I was in the process of losing the person I was with due to stopping to take photos!

Only just noticed it's a TfL banner - assumed it was BWB.

Very busy towpath - bikes and peds - we were fast where possible and slowed and even stopped at various points due to congestion.

Used bell coming up behind a group of three women (not in a get out of my way sense), passed them fairly slowly. One woman loudly proclaimed "I didn't realise this was a motorway". "it's not, it's a shared use path" I say. "Oh I didn't realise that" she replied.

At the time I took this to be further sarcasm, but perhaps not.

My wife witnessed a couple of 'racers' Polwarth/Slateford way the other day. One was soaking wet. She surmised that they had been approaching each other from both sides of a bridge.

Time for Spokes to re-launch http://www.politecycling.info and perhaps for BWB to print some "Thank you for slowing down" banners instead of the 6mph nonsense.

Posted 12 years ago #
Nelly
Member

@chdot

+1 on the 6mph signs - when I used to use the canal, I presumed they were intended for the barges, not cyclists !

Oops, dont think I ever slowed that much......

Posted 12 years ago #
PS
Member

Just to throw in a "you can't please everyone" line:

A few weeks ago I was cycling my racer south from fiveways junction towards Tesco and approached from behind a group of four peds spread across the path. I slowed down, with the resulting freewheel click, flicked my gear levers a few times (which is my other non-bell audio-indicator) and then said "excuse me". The peds looked over their shoulders, made a big show of moving out of my way, then one said loudly to the other "He doesn't even have a bell".

Not sure what the bell would have added to the situation, by there you go.

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"you can't please everyone"

Indeed

As mentioned above even bell owners don't always think it's the best thing in all circumstances - and doesn't always work either!

Freewheel click definitely works with some people. I have one bike with a very loud GripShift. I get the feeling that some people filter such noises out because they don't recognise it - others seems to react to any sound. (Can I get a research grant to investigate?)

I also 'snap' my brake levers - I think in circumstances where people aren't directly in front but I think I'll have to pass quite close to.

That's just a few of the cycling dynamics 'we' encounter every day and have to make instant decisions about - not always the optimum ones.

Posted 12 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

Having caught up with this thread late, just wanted to say I am appalled at the gall of someone ringing a bell on the pavement, especially at another cyclist, much less being mouthy about it after. How very, very sad.

Posted 12 years ago #
custard
Member

I think a major issue with the bell(i use them) is pedestrians seem to think it means a bike is about to mow them down
I 'ting' from a good way back but more often than not the ped jumps out of(or into!) the way

Posted 12 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

Custard - too true!

Posted 12 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"I 'ting' from a good way back but more often than not the ped jumps out of(or into!) the way"

You must have a loud bell - too often I get no apparent reaction at all.

Posted 12 years ago #
Kirst
Member

I make a point of never moving out of the way of pavement cyclists.

Posted 12 years ago #

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