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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "It would not have been appropriate for the government to intervene. This was a local government affair."

    Well yes but.

    The inexplicable (or at least so far unexplained) bit is why Transport Scotland was involved in (presumably) signing a contract that notionally said 'payment for progress' but turned into 'payment for invoice'.

    "Swinnney was able to step in after the Haymarket vote because there was a material change."

    Well yes but.

    It's hard to say that that was the first "material change". It had previously been voted on by CEC to only go as far as St. Andrew Square. Also, for a long time, it's been clear to most people (not including the councillors on the tie board of course) that there was not enough money to get anywhere near Newhaven.

    Now 'we' - as Edinburgh Council Tax payers are being asked to cover the cost of borrowing MILLIONS more for something that is clearly no longer 'value for money' - even if it was when all Scottish taxpayers were chipping in.

    "perhaps he is a nicer person than me". Hard to say - haven't seen you on Newsnight...

    I believe he could have done more and sooner. But there were certainly legal constraints as well as political considerations.

    Overall he probably made fewer bad decisions than most of the other people involved, but as a finance minister, probably more prudent than the Westminster one from Fife, I think he should have wanted (AND MADE SURE HE WAS ABLE) to keep a closer eye on the £500m.

    The fact that he hasn't (been able to), means he is not popular with some voters along the A9.

    Lothian Buses could do quite a lot with a share of £500m.

    Or it could buy 1000 Quality Bike Corridors.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. gembo
    Member

    Folds - Wendy ran the Labour Club at Glasgow Uni - I was a member for one day.

    The tram - it's gonna be great [tho will be £10 a ticket]. Not just trains that are just for the rich.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. wee folding bike
    Member

    Yes, I saw the bike corridors thread. Will read more on that.

    I wonder why they didn't go for trolley busses. I'm fairly sure the tram at Summerlee in Coatbridge runs on a battery and small generator so trolleys could use a similar system to pass each other.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. chdot
    Admin

    "I wonder why they didn't go for trolley busses."

    MAIN reason was it didn't fit with the 'prestigious big ticket' criteria.

    Don't forget the brief -

    Must be iconic.

    Has to get people out of their cars.

    Trolley buses involve the b word so are not iconic.

    The second one is slightly flawed in Edinburgh as many car owners are already happy to use Lothian Buses' fine fleet (NOW with WiFi!!).

    So £500m to pander to a certain class of lazy car owners.

    There is of course a, seldom mentioned, gender issue. Bus passengers are more likely to be female. So £500m to pander to a certain class of lazy car owners most of whom may be male.

    At present the tram is 'designed' to replace (part of) the 22 and (probably) the airport bus, and (to a lesser extent) the 35.

    Rail (tram) will clearly be smoother than bus (especially on the current surfaces that are not being mended because of - er - the tram works. And will be great if you're going to/from where the (few) tram stops happen to be (not Waverley Station/Bridge for instance). BUT there is a high chance you'll be standing.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. wee folding bike
    Member

    I would have to admit that I haven't been on service bus for more than a decade, the last time I was on one was from Willowbrae to the centre of Edinburgh. Usually we would have walked but we were with my friend's dad that day.

    I don't use busses because I have a bike. I used them regularly when I lived in London but only from there to Ayr/Glasgow not actually within London. I either walked or used a '51 Claud Butler.

    I've not been in a taxi in 20 years and I've never taken a taxi on my own. I even turned down a free one from Waverley to Dalkieth last winter because I had a bike with me.

    I use trains regularly but, as I've found from you guys, Edinburgh is not well supplied with them.

    I'd like Glasgow to link the tracks north and south of the Clyde and I actually saw a train crossing the line which used to run from St Enoch last weekend. You had found it was still active but I hadn't actually seen a train on it since '84 and even then I was surprised. Cross rail would have improved the case for GARL but it was still pretty poor.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossrail_Glasgow

    http://www.railbrit.co.uk/City_of_Glasgow_Union_Railway/frame.htm

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    "
    The move to "help" the council is a major climbdown for Alex Salmond's administration at Holyrood, which has tried to wash its hands of the increasingly beleaguered project since winning power in 2007.

    "

    (According to the Scotsman)

    http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/news/SNP-takes-charge-of-stricken.6836605.jp

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Agency staff who have worked on successful projects such as the M74 extension – which the government says was opened ahead of time and within budget - are being drafted in to complement the council's existing project team.  

    But the council will be expected to pay Transport Scotland for the cost of its staff.
    "

    http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Transport-Scotland-to-bill-city.6836735.jp

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. Dave
    Member

    "Edinburgh's Tory group leader Jeremy Balfour said: "They opted out for all these years and suddenly, just when things looks as if they might have resolved themselves, they are going to take all the credit."

    Yes - I think the SNP may come out of this rather well. They win by having opposed the trams along with the great upswell of public opinion (although the construction was done under their auspices, they were loudly seen to be overruled by the main parties on the trams act).

    Now that the council has crashed and burned on a project that will be remembered for at least a generation as the archetype of (some might allege) even criminally incompetent conception and oversight, the SNP are seen to be stepping in to sort out the mess against their own better judgement.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. kaputnik
    Moderator

    successful projects such as the M74 extension

    If a £248 million pound cost over-run on a 5-mile section of Motorway is defined as successful, we're truly scraping the infrastructure investment barrel

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Sorry. Not an "over-run". £248 million of creative accounting.

    Originally quoted at £245 million in 2001 and to complete in 2008.
    Fixed price contract for £445 is the figure put out by Government / Transport Scotland for the "cost".

    The £200+ that was also spent on buying the land and preparatory works taking total to £692 million or whatever is accounted for eslewhere. If at all?

    Anyway.

    It's like saying the Trams cost £50 million because that's the cost of the tram rails with the other £700 was spent on land purchase and "preparatory works".

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

    "
    There are substantial hidden costs in the trams over the cost of traffic diversions and roads management together with loss of parking income - these are all met by CEC.

    In addition, all these relief schemes which reduce business rates is a loss to Central Govt.

    Add in the negative impact of delays, congestion, businesses going bust, etc and the Business case is every more appalling than presented.

    "

    ENews comment

    http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Transport-Scotland-to-bill-city.6836735.jp?CommentPage=1&CommentPageLength=1000#6408183

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. wee folding bike
    Member

    What's the state of play with the housing developers at the eastern end of the route? As I recall they were major players in the tram plan.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. chdot
    Admin

    "What's the state of play with the housing developers at the eastern end of the route?"

    On hold...

    Some of what has been built seems hard to resell.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. chdot
    Admin

    http://www.forthone.com/news/local/green-light-for-edinburgh-trams

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. chdot
    Admin

    "POTENTIAL developers are still being told how trams will help regenerate Edinburgh's Waterfront - even though the troubled project is stopping in the city centre."

    http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/39False39-document-claims-trams-will.6837379.jp

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. chdot
    Admin

    In the loosest sense (Siemens are providing electrical equipment for tram) -

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14963575

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. chdot
    Admin

    This IS current -

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=3947

    Posted 13 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    http://m.scotsman.com/news/arts/trams-derail-edinburgh-s-hogmanay-party-as-street-works-force-organisers-into-rethink-1-2631798

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/edinburgh-trams-project-making-good-1435561

    Posted 12 years ago #

  20. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Tram stop at Edinburgh airport unveiled

    Slightly exposed the limitations of that partial canopy by unveiling the thing on a rainy day!

    2/10 for effort. Must try harder.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  21. chdot
    Admin

    "

    COUNCIL chiefs have appointed consultants Turner and Townsend as project managers for the proposed £145 million extension of the tram route down Leith Walk to Newhaven.

    The firm - which took over day-to-day management of the original tram project from the council’s own arms-length company TIE in 2011 - has been awarded a £617,705 contract.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/tram-extension-consultants-appointed-to-lead-project-1-4373951

    Posted 8 years ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    "

    But the trams also gave Frank and his pals the freedom to explore the city in a way that would terrify most 21st century parents. “You would just jump on a tram with your mates and go for a wee tram run.”

    With 14 tram lines crossing the city at the time there were plenty of opportunities. “You could take a tram to the Braid Hills, light a wee stove, you had your wee Tate and Lyle tin which you used to boil some water in, some loose tea leaves and sugar and make yourself a pot of tea.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/leith/new-tv-series-sheds-light-on-leith-in-the-1930s-1-4373492

    Posted 8 years ago #

  23. PS
    Member

    [wrong thread!]

    Posted 8 years ago #

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