CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

Police cyclists

(59 posts)
  • Started 13 years ago by Roibeard
  • Latest reply from Roibeard

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12

  1. Roibeard
    Member

    Just had a conversation with one of Lothian & Borders' "mounties". Two of them had pulled up at the cycle marking event, so I chatted for a bit.

    <aside> She had spotted me on the road before - why do folk seem to remember me? </aside>

    Turns out the hardtail she was riding came from Edinburgh Bike Co-op, and that they had trialed lightbars.

    They'd found the bottle mounted battery packs to be too heavy and that shouting was equally effective when clearing the road ahead.

    Experience has shown that around town the bikes are quicker than vehicles - often the mounted officers will arrive first on the scene, particularly with our current road works and closures.

    I'd have expected the "useful to patrol paths/cycle lanes" rationale, rather than "it's quicker in town", although most of us here would recognise the speed of a cyclist in traffic. Mind you, if on a shout, they do (may?) ride on the pavement, so appear able to take shortcuts that even we wouldn't (shouldn't?).

    Previous mention of the mounties

    One criticism was that the bikes were heavy, and they looked it!

    An expected comment was that she saw fewer RLJs when cycling on patrol...

    Robert

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. PS
    Member

    "An expected comment was that she saw fewer RLJs when cycling on patrol..."

    I'd be interested to know if the mounties feel they get more respect from motorists than the average cyclist.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. Dave
    Member

    Do they also ride to work? If so, would they recommend fake police uniforms as a way of reducing the casualty toll of cyclists to dangerous drivers? ;-)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    Dave: "fake police uniforms" or the "Polite" stickers that used to be available for motorcycles.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. wee folding bike
    Member

    I've seen the same RLJ twice in the last week.

    It's a BMW.

    He goes along the right turn lane and blasts straight through on red before it goes to red & amber.

    This morning I had a wee word and told him I had his number. It's one of those special plates which all say the same thing.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. Darkerside
    Member

    Can chip in with some authority here as I ran a (St John) Ambulance cycle response unit for a year and a half. Definitely get more respect from motorists, but then the panniers are enormous and take up more roadspace, so I'm sure that's partly it. And if the police think their bikes are heavy they should try carrying around double gas cylinders and a defibrillator...

    That being said, they are superbly efficient and effective when used in the right way, as well as generating a generally favourable impression with the average member of the public. For things like crowds, pedestrian areas, parks and sports fields, nothing will get kit to a casualty faster.

    Regarding traffic law, any vehicle being used for ambulance purposes may treat red traffic lights as give way, pass the wrong side of traffic islands and ignore speed limits (complete with loud cheer if on a cycle). As not specifically granted an exemption, riding on the pavement would presumably still technically be illegal (as well as generally being slower than using the road)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. 1lesscar
    Member

    "Regarding traffic law, any vehicle being used for ambulance purposes may treat red traffic lights as give way, pass the wrong side of traffic islands and ignore speed limits (complete with loud cheer if on a cycle). As not specifically granted an exemption, riding on the pavement would presumably still technically be illegal (as well as generally being slower than using the road)"

    What part of Road Traffic Act is that in?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. alibali
    Member

    @WFB Thanks!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. Darkerside
    Member

    With some spirited googling:
    Exemption from speed limits
    Part b for red light as give way
    Pass to right of keep left signs
    Primarily within the 2002 Traffic signs act

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. 1lesscar
    Member

    I would not say this applied to every 'ambulance'. Only ones fitted with warning devices, ie lights and sirens. Further states that only applies if justifiable and in the benefit of the patient. Therefore does not apply to private ambulances or pretty much any ambulance not in service of Scottish Ambulance Service.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. Dave
    Member

    It does specifically say "On an occasion where a vehicle is being used for ambulance purposes"* which would seem to be the wider definition (otherwise they could just say "an ambulence in current NHS livery" or similar)...

    * I've omitted the controversial ellipses as well as excised text, see the links above for the full version.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. Darkerside
    Member

    Whilst I'm not legally minded, I don't follow your argument 1lesscar. Equally I can only comment on the driving policy of North East Ambulance Service as they apply to the two volunteer ambulance services running under that umbrella (SJA and BRC). All three use lights and sirens at all times when responding to suitably categorised calls. However, I don't believe there is any requirementto have these running or on the vehicle (although clearly it generally makes it safer for all involved if the big yellow vehicle is even more noticable). I'm assuming the reason this is not required is for the more subtle police work, when going through residential areas at night (sirens) and when faced with thick fog (blue lights reflect back in the eyes of the driver)

    The "ambulance purpose" and "benefit of the patient" are the two key bits, therefore cycles from any ambulance organisation are covered. Supporting this, the leading word 'motor' was removed from 'vehicle' in the definition a few years back.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. 1lesscar
    Member

    To make my position clearer, I was involved in an incident a couple of years ago with a so called private ambulance where by a vehicle with private ambulance written on the side of it took me off my bike coming out of a side road. The driver said he was exempt and I should have stopped. He had no lights or siren and was not engaged in responding to a person in a medical emergency. The police were involved and it turned out I was right. You an apply to DVLA and classify your vehicle as an ambulance, however legal exemptions only apply if you are involved in emergency response to an ill/injured person and can justify your actions. Otherwise, there is no exemption. Police, fire service are all the same. There have been numerous publicised occasions where police officers have been prosecuted within police cars, when speeding. The vehicle alone does not exempt you from the law.

    Sorry for confusion!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. steveo
    Member

    Its my understanding that those black "Private Ambulance" vans are used by Coroners office or whatever its called in Scotland. If it was once one of them i'm not sure what the hurry could have been...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. DaveC
    Member

    @Steveo, Late for his tea?

    I used to know a guy who drove a private ambulance. We were in the Territorial Army together. He turned up in the 'Company van' as he called it, one lunchtime and a few sadistic folk wanted to see his 'client' inside. He (happily) didn't concede to their requests.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. Darkerside
    Member

    Ah, in which case I fully agree with you! And even if the vehicle was responding to an emergency, the best the driver gets is to treat various things as give way rather than sit and wait, and the safety of other road users always takes priority. Your private ambulance driver sounds something of a prat...

    It's still enormously satisfying being legally able to go through a red light on a cycle though :p

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. 1lesscar
    Member

    I can imagine. :)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. SRD
    Moderator

    Two mounties riding along NMW, van and footpolice at top of MMW. Wish some of them had seen bike RLJ who I had to brake to avoid when crossing Melville Drive at MMW!

    (I should be honest here - from his reaction when I shouted at him, he probably thought I'd anticipated my light, but don't think I had, and in any case all other traffic had stopped and several pedestrians had already crossed in front of me...)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  19. Morningsider
    Member

    SRD - yes, about 10 police officers at the top of MMW stopping various cyclists. Must have had my best law abiding citizen face on as they let me glide regally past. I assume its some kind of drive to target student cyclits and remind them to fit lights etc. Anyone any idea if this is actually the case?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  20. wingpig
    Member

    Maybe they're just hanging around there all day if they're dishing out anti-theft registrations on MMW at 11am.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  21. 1lesscar
    Member

    Spoke to one of the mounties this morning and this is a week long initiative looking at cyclists and motorists to make the streets safer for cyclists. They are focussing on offending behaviour by both, RLJ's, anti-social cycling and driving, motorosts who don't stop at first stop line, motorists not giving cyclists enough space and other things I forgot.

    Sounds good, hope they keep it going after the week has finished. A shame the press have not picked up on it. Would be interesting to read the usual comments on Evening News.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  22. SRD
    Moderator

    "motorosts who don't stop at first stop line, motorists not giving cyclists enough space and other things I forgot." Could we get them over on Gilmore place in the evenings please?

    Me (pointing at stop line) "that's your stop line, back there'

    Private hire driver looks confused

    Me (pointing at stop line) "that's your stop line, back there'

    Lights change; private hire car stays back, lets me go, then goes waaaay out around me very slowly :)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  23. RJ
    Member

    MMW polis were also advocating helmets & hi-viz and pointing out legal requirements, such as working brakes and reflectors. Though not apparently working lights after dark (or maybe the chap I spoke to was simply in daylight mode ...).

    Posted 13 years ago #

  24. miggy_magic
    Member

    One of the mounted polis stopped a female student cyclist at the corner of Forrest Road/Lauriston Place on this morning's commute. He looked like he was waving his truncheon to get her attention.

    She'd been gleefully RLJ'ing each junction from Tollcross to Lauriston (I kept overtaking her). Dunno if they'd spotted her last RLJ or were informing her about her bike's lack of lights.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  25. kaputnik
    Moderator

    According to Twitter, L&B were hitting up MMW as part of a general cyclists information / bike registering / stamping / marking scheme.

    If they pointed out the rights and wrongs of the law to any infractors, the more the better. Without wanting to stereotype a whole group, the recently arrived/returned students (or people who look like students, by which I mean younger people than I!) generally appear to have no clue about where you stop, where you turn, which side of the road you cycle on, cycling on pavements on mobile phones etc.

    Noticeable upsurge in lawbreaking spotted over last few weeks while waiting at red lights. Have started ticking off people again for RLJ and not having lights at night.

    Grumble Grumble. It makes me feel better, and helps pass the time as I work my way past them in the morning to demonstrate that their lightjump saves them no time whatsoever if they'd just stop more and cycle a bit faster the rest of the time.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  26. gembo
    Member

    Kapps - remember this bit of philosophy

    FAWLTY: You know nothing.

    MANUEL: You always, say that Mr Fawlty but I learn

    Of course Fawlty was trying to get Manuel to keep quiet about the horse - Dragonfly

    But with the new students, the great thing is that they will learn. YOu are modelling that slowing down at a red then accelerating as it changes to green gets you past the stationary cyclist at the light who was going too fast to notice and then helps you to catch the red light jumper {RLJ}

    Posted 13 years ago #

  27. spytefear
    Member

    Saw them at Haymarket/Shandwick this morning had a big batch of shiny slapbands I think, speaking to a cyclist in the changing room at work they said they were handing them out to anyone with no hi-vis on at the meadows yesterday rather than stopping speeding cyclists cos he stopped to ask for one and was told "no. 'op it you've got eye vis on" - apologies for the added copper accent

    Posted 13 years ago #

  28. SRD
    Moderator

    Audio - interview with top cycling copper Quentin Russell

    Yesterday, whilst cycling back from a radio recording, I found a large group of Lothian and Borders Police Officers and a van blocking the cycle route at the start of Middle-Meadow Walk, stopping cyclists.

    What, I thought, is going on? Where people without helmets or appropriate lycra being rounded up and jailed?

    Far from it. As it turned out, this was part of a week-long outreach program by some of the Lothian and Borders bike police, doing free safety checks on bikes. They had also tagged 49 bikes over the last two days (before releasing them back into the wild...) That means that if they do get nicked, there's a better chance of them getting back to their owner.

    I was asked if I wanted to get my expensive electric bike tagged. When I said that it wasn't mine, they started reaching for the cuffs...but I quickly explained that I'd borrowed it from the Bike Station!

    I was also given a free hi-vis clippy thing from a friendly officer called Quentin - who, as it turns out, is something of a pioneer for police cycling in the city. He's been responsible for training some thirty officers for bike patrol duties, and they currently have a fleet of 17 Lothian and Borders Police Bikes for the city centre.

    I interviewed Quention about what they were doing, and also about their work on bike patrol. Towards the end of the interview, we also discussed ways in which cycling can be made safer in the city - and had a bit of a debate about who's responsibility that is. Quentin thinks that it's mostly down to the cyclists.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  29. wingpig
    Member

    No free slap-band for me from the West End station car park, though it was full daylight and there was one already round my stem.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  30. SRD
    Moderator

    "slap-bands" -- in our house these are known as best ever baby and toddler toys!

    Posted 13 years ago #

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