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CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Princes Street "Cyclist Dismount"
(154 posts)-
Posted 12 years ago #
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Its interesting you say that Laidback, Just look at the number of signs around the place just to try and make drivers behave them selves.
Parking restrictions, bus lanes advice, speed limits, speed camera warnings, caution school, caution old people, remember your stopping distance...
All of the signs above are simply to tell people how to behave and if people weren't so selfish in general wouldn't be required. One shouldn't need to be reminded to go slower in town, not to park on a busy road or to pay more attention near a school.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Can I just ask, Dave, say you were riding home really late, the streets are deserted save for a few people walking, there's a red light ahead. Do you stop at the red light or ride through (safely and paying attention)?"
I, personally, wouldn't ride through although I do quite often get off and walk if it means saving a couple of minutes. However, if it became legal to ride through red lights but annoyed drivers just as much I would ride through them, so I don't restrain myself on the basis of a hypothetical PR effect of my actions.
Perhaps you should have asked about a pedestrian/bike crossing (where the red light is shaped like a bike) - I do ignore them both on foot and on two wheels, since they are just advisory. I imagine though that society (being ignorant of the law) reels from my reckless decision to treat advisory lights as advisory... ;-)
To be honest I see your question and think of the way that if one drives at 70mph on the bypass, 95% of vehicles will be howling past you in the fast lane illegally.
The difference (as we can see even in this topic) is that breaking actual laws as part of the in-group is just what everyone does, hardly worth mentioning - but even ignoring things which *aren't* laws gives rise to questions from other members of the out-group.
This sort of stuff is really interesting. Drink-driving became an out-group identifier which is the real reason people don't drink and drive, they do send txts from the wheel which is just as dangerous though, because that's *not* (yet, I live in hope!) an out-group activity.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Perhaps you should have asked about a pedestrian/bike crossing (where the red light is shaped like a bike) - I do ignore them both on foot and on two wheels, since they are just advisory"
Depends on the road/path layout. As has been discussed here before, the crossing on the south end of MMW has lights that are actually mandatory. Again, much like the 'Cyclists Dismount' signs, I wouldn't go riding through all red bike lights on the basis that they're advisory as many aren't...
Posted 12 years ago # -
Perhaps you should have asked about a pedestrian/bike crossing (where the red light is shaped like a bike) - I do ignore them both on foot and on two wheels, since they are just advisory.
Morningsider can confirm, but I thought that the bike crossing lights are not advisory but are obligatory?
Posted 12 years ago # -
From trying to remember my own reading, they are advisory if they share a crossing with peds (as the ped lights are advisory) but mandatory if they are technically a separate crossing (the south end of MMW crosses to/from a cut out specific cycle lane).
Posted 12 years ago # -
the south end of MMW crosses to/from a cut out specific cycle lane
Not according to the Taxi driver I found across it in the summer using it to drop off and pick off passengers on an otherwise fully parked-upon MMW. He could not see the cycle lane, the dedicated crossing, the signs or the lines on the road that he was parked on, therefore he was entitled to block it for 2 complete cycles of the light.
Posted 12 years ago # -
If they are a Crossing they're advisory, if they are actual lights they're mandatory. So for instance MMW has traffic lights, not Crossing lights, but crossing Marchmont Rd is just a Crossing. (Maybe there's a better term than 'crossing'?)
I'm not actually sure why MMW has traffic lights at the north end - it's most unusual. However, it's also very poorly observed compared with normal red lights - in my own anecdata, I notice an average of zero RLJ cyclists per day on my commute, but if I go via MMW, I expect to see people jumping at both ends (especially north).
Posted 12 years ago # -
"I'm not actually sure why MMW has traffic lights at the north end - it's most unusual. However, it's also very poorly observed compared with normal red lights - in my own anecdata, I notice an average of zero RLJ cyclists per day on my commute, but if I go via MMW, I expect to see people jumping at both ends (especially north)."
So do you abide by the lights?
Posted 12 years ago # -
Highway Code
80
Toucan crossings. These are light-controlled crossings which allow cyclists and pedestrians to share crossing space and cross at the same time. They are push-button operated. Pedestrians and cyclists will see the green signal together. Cyclists are permitted to ride across.(as per north end of MMW)
81
Cycle-only crossings. Cycle tracks on opposite sides of the road may be linked by signalled crossings. You may ride across but you MUST NOT cross until the green cycle symbol is showing.(as per south end of MMW)
Posted 12 years ago # -
What's the status of ones (like at RBS and airport dumbbell) that have green for cycles and peds, but only a pedestrian red?
My take (as I run through them every morning) suggests that peds have to stop to press button, bikes keep going if safe.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Anth, I'm pretty sure that the N end of MMW is a type 81 too, or am I going crazy? (as in, it has a solid red light)?
"So do you abide by the lights?"
Going up MMW, yes (with the same caveat as before) but coming down, I often ride over the line to turn left. It depends on the positions of the peds, as I also ride over the former dropped kerb (the one that was accidentally removed).
That's a fun thing to do, incidentally. If you want to turn left onto MMW at the north end but the light is red, stop at the lights. Once or twice I've done this to see whether I can get an uninvited draftee to do anything embarrassing.
Posted 12 years ago # -
As far as I know the north crossing has a button to push doesn't it?
*off to check GoogleMaps*
Posted 12 years ago # -
How interesting - crossing to the south, there is no facility for cyclists at all (perhaps this means it's illegal to cross at any time, or that you can cross at any time).
Going to the north, there is a traffic light and you must stop (not advisory).
Posted 12 years ago # -
D'oh! Getting my north and south mixed up - yes, that's the way I thought.
So there isn't even a light for cyclists at the south? Odd since it crosses onto a short cyclepath over the central reservation there...
Posted 12 years ago # -
The South (Argyle Place) crossing has a button for the pedestrian crossing side but not on the bike crossing side (although the one button controls both sides) requiring a technical violation of cycling into pedestrian area and over pavement to reach the button.
Coming from Argyle Place, the detector in the ground seems to work if you sit on top of it.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Obviously nobody here cycles on the pavement to reach the button though - right?
Unlike the dismount signs that aren't, you really aren't allowed to cycle on the pavement... can make for a long and lonely wait if no peds about.
Posted 12 years ago # -
There's a radar detector when heading south off the end of MMW. Can never work out how effective it is.
Posted 12 years ago # -
You're not allowed to cycle on the pavement but are allowed to cross the pavement to reach a designated cycle facility, or something like that. Could that conceivably be argued to apply at the MMW south crossing-button?
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Coming from Argyle Place, the detector in the ground seems to work if you sit on top of it."
Mmm interesting.
I assumed detectors detected metal motion - so faster should mean more likely to get detected.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I think if you move off it, it stops detecting you - it's not the motion but the mass of metal relative to baseline. That's why magnets apparently don't work either - it's not detecting a magnetic field.
Posted 12 years ago # -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_loop
Even has a photo of a bike lane.
Posted 12 years ago # -
but the mass of metal relative to baseline.
That's why steel bikes are good on this route then. Low down steel even better.
Aluminium bike = long wait?
Does seem to work if you cross over it more than stopping on it. Car drove straight through Argyle Place crossing when it was at green bike phase last night. Luckily I gave way with a few inches to spare - on Paper Bicycle with good lights. He saw me but wasn't for stopping.
I reckon it's one of the more ignored junctions as Melville Drive can be driven quite fast.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I see vehicles - often vans - running these lights nearly every morning.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Had a check this morning and I was wrong about the south MMW lights. Pics attached - it is a separate crossing for bikes, so as far as I can tell they're also mandatory to stop at as the pedestrian (button press) crossing is separate (even though pedestrians and bikes cross at the same time, they're not 'mixed' on the same crossing).
Untitled by blackpuddinonnabike, on FlickrPosted 12 years ago # -
I wonder if you could argue that it was one crossing due to the fact the two sets of lights (pedestrian, cycle) are all wired up together and controlled by one button? They cannot operate independently, as in you can't have the silly situation where one is at green and the other isn't.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Had a check this morning and I was wrong about the south MMW lights"
Er, north!
Posted 12 years ago # -
Oh good grief, what is it with me and this path and mixing up north and south?!?!? *off to beat myself about the head with a track pump*
Posted 12 years ago # -
I'm always making that north/south error in Edinburgh. I think it's something to do with the map-derived assumption that "up = north", so moving uphill from the coast feels like heading north. That, or I'm just plain dumb.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Further thought on the 'Cyclists Dismount' sign original topic.
'No skateboarding' signs appear when enough people skateboard in a location.A 'Cyclist dismount' sign is a sure indication that there are enough cyclists using the street to need a discouragement. All in all a healthy sign reflecting increasing cycle numbers!
More helpful would be a sign encouraging cycling (with care). Princes St must rate as several times safer than George St - only pedestrians and workers + vehicles with warning lights.
Posted 12 years ago #
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