CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 16years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
@chdot @smsm1 All well and good, and some merit, but taking me for example, I hold and use licences for Artics, minibuses, motorcycles, car, car and trailer... do I therefore have to re-take all of those or just one, or a representative test or what??
Some simple ideas are not that simple...
@Smudge
Clearly you are in a well trained minority.
I'm sure a scheme can be devised that would be mainly aimed at people who 'just' have a car licence.
They are different challenges around professional drivers -
@smudge........ and you can provisionaly drive/operate,self propelled lawn mowers, tractors, etc etc etc etc, but not, showmans outfits, whether over or under the prerequisit lengths !
PS, if my artic is actually a race car ;) transporter, and is not for hire or reward,do i still need lgv licence ?
@Anth "One thing that I really, honestly, do find bizarre to be taught and certainly I 'only learned for my test' was passing the wheel from hand to hand with hands set at 10 to 3. Much, much more control in many situations not having to do that."
I would disagree with that, if you are looking ahead and planning your drive, passing the wheel from hand to hand, gives a much smoother drive. Where people are crossing hands or swinging the one handed, that are driving on reactions and haven't thought ahead. This is the reason it is taught to advanced drivers, it does give greater control, especially on rough surfaces.
One of the biggest problems is that most drivers don't look far enough ahead, look for the hazards and plan how to deal with them before they get to them. They only look a few meters ahead and try to react to situations as they arise.
@Splitshift, lol, I bet your entitlement list runs right along the photocard as well ;-)
As to your question, depends on the vehicle size/weight but assuming it is big enough then yes you will need a C+E licence however you may tax it as PLG.
(He says crossing his fingers he's correct!)
Do I win the prize...?
Really, advanced driving teaches hand-to-hand?
Slight sweeping generalisation that people not doing so aren't looking ahead though Kim...
Also, "Much, much more control in many situations not having to do that"
Not all. not always. Not even necessarily most. But many.
Is it as black and white as 'always more control passing hand to hand'?
"One of the biggest problems is that most drivers don't look far enough ahead", have you ever watched another person driving? It used to be my job, and even now when I am in the passenger seat I still look to see where the driver is looking (although I don't have the advantage of a wee mirror in the corner for the windscreen for doing it).
It is strange that just about everyone who holds a driving licence thinks that they are an expert driver. It isn't until you have had training at an advanced level that you realise just how ludicrous this belief is. Most people take a very causal attitude to driving and don't take the time to think about why they were taught certain techniques, they are actually taught for a reason.
(Grins) very little is black and white ;-)
(Except red lights!?!)
Will have to ask about the Adv Driving policy, my course was on the bike so I couldn't speak with authority on that, I know they *used* to teach that (feeding the wheel through your hands) but will endeavour to find out if they still do.
I would agree that it's not (imho) as clear cut as "should always", however I would maintain that it is a useful technique to be able to utilise where and when appropriate.
"It is strange that just about everyone who holds a driving licence thinks that they are an expert driver"
Not sure I made that assumption either, just countered the assertion that by not passing the wheel from hand-to-hand I therefore wasn't looking far enough ahead!
I agree that many drivers don't look far enough ahead. I'm not sure turning while not passing the wheel from hand-to-hand is necessarily indicative of that though...
"It is strange that just about everyone who holds a driving licence thinks that they are an expert driver."
Can I be the exception and grade myself at average to (hopefully!) average/good? I certainly wouldn't say "expert"... but then I wouldn't grade many people at that... so I'm probably condemning myself now... ho-hum :-/
"It is strange that just about everyone who holds a driving licence thinks that they are an expert driver. It isn't until you have had training at an advanced level that you realise just how ludicrous this belief is."
Er, no. I have had no advanced-level driver training yet can spot that some drivers consider themselves much more capable, observant, wise or safe than they actually are.
I presume some white van drivers have dispensation for the 'hand to hand' steering style ?
Impossible to do that, smoke a ciggie AND answer the mobile while keeping an eye out for pc plod who might give them a ticket for not wearing a seat belt?
@winpig, without putting words into Kims mouth, I took the comment to refer to peoples ability to self assess?
@Nelly, you forgot the exemptions to all speed and parking restrictions as well ;-)
Oh and not just white ones, the same exemptions seem to be held by some red ones as well (esp ones allegedly carrying black and white cats called Jess...)
@Smude I took it to mean what it says. Either way, my statement describes my opinion. Insufficient drivers drive with an "anyone (including myself) could do anything at any time, no matter how dangerous or stupid: drive with appropriate caution" approach.
"drive cycle with appropriate caution"
Agreed, defensive driving/riding should be a core part of training. In the words of one of my first bike instructors:
"assume everyone on the road is a homicidal maniac whose sole desire is to kill or main you. You will not be disappointed. However remember, it is not that they actually hate you, maybe they are just distracted, late, worried about their sick Grandma... any one of a hundred other things, just like you may be at some point. Live, but live and let live".
Ah, now I see where you are coming from Anth, we are talking to some extent at cross purposes. Crossing hands is a minor fault, it wouldn't cause you to fail a normal driving test, but could be counted against you on an advanced test (on the ADI part 2, you are only allowed to make 6 minor faults).
The reason that it is consider to be important for an advanced driver to passed the wheel through their hands, is that in order to do it smoothly every time requires the driver to take good observation all of the time. As passing the wheel through the hand is slightly slower that crossing hands, it requires the driver to anticipate the maneuver and adjust to the correct speed for the maneuver in good time. This need good all round observation and actually thinking through maneuver in advance, rather than mechanistically reacting to situation.
It is rather a subtle point I am trying to make and I not sure I have explained it fully. There is a reason for all these things, which is not always fully understood by those doing the teaching. Another thing which often misunderstood is just how fundamentally dangerous driving is, compared with other activities, just as riding a bicycle.
The thing that makes driving so dangerous is that it is possible to achieve high speeds with very little effort and that a lot of consideration is required to be safe. That is not to say that riding a bicycle is entirely safe (nothing is), it is just that to achieve speeds high enough to be at risk of serious injury does serious effort. Also most of the risk involved in riding a bicycle on the roads comes from the carelessness of those piloting 1.5 ton+ of metal with very little effort and sometimes concentration.
@Nelly "stopping distances" are supposedly given for a "typical car" on a dry road with a good surface condition. From memory the HC also states stopping distances double in the wet and are up to X10 greater on ice. So if it is icy the stopping distance at 60 mph is a little over 1 mile, not something many driver seem to realise.
Of course these distances are only supposed to be a guide, they are supposed to make people think about how long it will take you to stop from any given speed, and you should always to be able to stop within the distance to can see. Sadly this is a point missed by many drivers who simply learn them by rote. The other big problem with the "stopping distances" approach is than many some people find it difficult in visualising these distances and therefore they don't understand just how long it will take to come to a stop.
All of this is not helped by the belief that modern car technology will keep them safe. Technology can do many things, but it can not overcome the laws of physics. Some seem to think that because the "stopping distances" have been around for a long time, they are no longer relevant to modern braking systems, but this ignores the fundamental laws of physics still apply to mass and velocity. Cars are generally heavier now than they used to be and so take just as long to stop.
@Kim
What do mean by "fundamentally" when you say driving is fundamentally dangerous? I don't want to misunderstand before disagreeing but I think of things being fundamentally dangerous if they have a high probability of resulting in injury or death. So, bathing in petrol while smoking is fundamentally dangerous but driving seems no more dangerous than flying in an aeroplane or riding my bike down a steep hill both of which allow me to attain great speed at near zero effort but where the probability of injury or death also approaches zero. They seem fundamentally safe.
The reason most drivers ignore stopping distances is that their experience tells them that they do not apply in the real world. The total distance is a combination of reaction time and braking time but in practice (and many know this because they experience it regularly) they only have to account for their reaction to the driver in front's brake lights. From that point on both are decelerating and can brake over the same distance without any problem, providing the distance between the cars is only slightly greater than the reaction distance. That's why drivers can routinely be much closer than the stopping distance would suggest and yet no accident happens.
My driving instructor advised me to look as far ahead as possible at all times, including looking through the windows of the cars in front if you did not have a clear view. He also advised me as Smudge's instructor did to treat everyone else on the road as a probable homicidal maniac with an agenda and also as idiots. He also said that one should take into account the fact that your car is a potential lethal weapon and can kill quite easily and therefore should be treated and driven with respect. One question he asked what "what is the most important road sign?" I was changing down gears to go around a corner and he asked me what I was doing, and said no, no, no...brake and then change down before going round, if you want to sit an advanced driving test then by all means do what you're doing it is the correct thing, but to get through your test at this stage this will not win you brownie points. I was told that crossing my hands over on the steering wheel would result in a fail...
Oh, yes the most important road sign....the one you have just passed!!
@chdot They are different challenges around professional drivers -
I note there are a number of very insensitive, anti-cyclist rants in the comments for that article. I mean, people died. Yet some drivers are playing 'blame the cyclists' again...
One would have though Boris Johnson would take more of an interest, after all he was nearly killed by a lorry himself:
I would like to add, I am not sure that many of them know much of the highway code in the first place! I really learnt how to drive after I had passed my test and had been driving for months if not years. Also you do not go on m/ways as a learner and that really is a different ballgame and style of driving, requiring you to be ultra vigilant and awake. I am daily and constantly amazed at the inability of many to park their cars, how on earth did they pass? As I would say, where did you buy your licence, or who did you get to sit your test because you must have done to be driving.
expert drivers ! I am not, am only just capable of keeping it the right way up ! Treat all other drivers as if they were homicidal......... THEY ARE !I remember when ABS brakes were introduced, I worked in a garage, drove the wrecker,lots of ABS equiped cars were driving into the back of old cars in e brake situations !This will prob not be everyones cup of tea, but i reckon people should go and watch motor racing, esp stock cars. The amount of serious damage that can be inflicted on a motor car frame, even at low speed is frightening. Put all the removed dash board, carpets and door panels back in and the accident starts to take on limb snapping, heart stopping dimensions.Start looking at the length of fences that are taken down in a crash, each fence post could be legs, or necks ! Cars and buses etc are very dangerous, unfortunately in a car you tend not to see/feel the danger, as cyclists we can, we are much closer to the problems. Not many car drivers have walked round a bus garage or transport yard to really appreciate the size and make up of these vehicles, but then not many have thought about the vulnerability of cyclists if they connect.
be safe !
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