CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

Urban Foxes

(48 posts)
  • Started 13 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from tarmac jockey

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  1. Stepdoh
    Member

    Hmm.

    Not sure about commercially farmed fur, think technology has moved us on from the need to farm animals purely for their hides, and even then it is such a premium product that it's not really just to keep people warm these days, more of a conspicuous consumption.

    Leather I would class differently, as it is very much a by-product of the dairy/meat industry.

    Byproduct fur (say they used possum fur for stuff a lot in NZ, as it's an insidious pest, but then again it's caught from the wild)is okay, but IMO Fur for Fur's sake is a bit grim. Fox fur stoles are possibly the grossest thing since tiger skin rugs.

    But we wouldn't have the "Wear the fox hat" joke without it.

    (and yes, I'm aware my job means this smacks of a slight double standard)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    This blinkin' forum is great for getting your views on something tweaked. Stepdoh, thanks for that. :)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    "great for getting your views on something tweaked"

    You mean you don't want to shoot a tigerskinrug anymore??

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. SRD
    Moderator

    Only fur I wear at present - other than sheepskin - is on hood of my c. 1950s Grenfell parka from Labrador. (there's a bunch in the national museum if you're curious).

    But I would happily wear sealskin mittens if I could get them.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "You mean you don't want to shoot a tigerskinrug anymore??"

    More that I had started pondering whether fur farming was really all that bad, and if it was hypocritical for a meat eater (as I am) to dislike animal fur used for clothing (as I do) but find it fine to wear leather shoes (as I also do).

    It had put me into a bit of a quandary. Stepdoh's summary cleared up what I was trying to get to.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. SRD
    Moderator

    is leather entirely/mainly a byproduct of food industry?

    if so, then good points, but wasn't aware of any clear connection, except perhaps in the Horn, where Italy certainly used to export hides for use in shoe trade.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. Stepdoh
    Member

    *note to self*

    Politely decline if SRD ever suggests going clubbing.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. Stepdoh
    Member

    I could honestly say that I can't see a way that farming cattle for leather would make any sense, hides are not a valuable enough substance, and there's all that valuable tasty stuff in the middle.

    For a while has been the same (until recently) for sheepskin.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. SRD
    Moderator

    Sorry Stepdoh, I guess I was wondering about the logistics. Does all cattle hide farmed in UK do to leather/other by-products? hadn't really thought about it ('valuable tasty stuff in the middle'). makes sense to me. Seal's not all tha nice to eat, but okay once in a while. They're just a heck of a lot cuter than the cod, which, while tasty, isn't much use for keeping you warm.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. Stepdoh
    Member

    Glad I can be your conscience Anth :). Sorry SRD, was one of the few topics I've got the information at hand. Won't go into details, but you would be amazed how un-wasteful the whole meat process is.

    This is for mainly financial reasons. Everything that gets 'thrown away' at an abattoir has to be paid for, so the financial incentive is to make a product out of every bit you can. Even if you can sell something for a couple of pennies a kilo, or even give it away it's still a net positive as you're not paying for disposal.

    This is particularly applicable for pigs. The 'everything but the oink' thing is pretty much true. (Look on the back of a packet of percy pigs next time you are in M&S and you'll see why they're not halal). If anyone is particularly interested, there is a very detailed report here, including a chapter on Tripe. Yummy.

    Now can we get back to the cute fox pictures.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. Stepdoh
    Member

    PS Anth. Fur farming is AWFUL. Mainly as it's done in regions with bugger all regulation.

    Did a search on the internet. Wouldn't suggest anyone did likewise, wish I had an 'unsee' button. And I would suggest I'm fairly tempered to that kind of thing.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. SRD
    Moderator

    Stepdoh" you would be amazed how un-wasteful the whole meat process is." very glad to hear it! good to know that regulation works. and also good to know it is unwasteful in principle (well, except that much of the farming itself is inherently wasteful, plus worries about methane).

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. Stepdoh
    Member

    Not being argumentative, but I don't think you can make the assumption that the system is inherently wasteful.

    A lot of the research on it is extremely generalised, mainly focusing on the worst cases from the myriad of systems in the world from coos in fields, to coos in feedlots (the majority in the US, AFAIK).

    Most of the grazed land here (82%, in fact), particularly for sheep, is unsuitable for growing veggies/crops on, as it's too hilly to be combineable and too exposed. That's why we've got specific wooly breeds of coos and sheep (and you thought that was just for the tourists).

    A lot of the 'takes 1,000 litres of water to make 1kg of beef' arguments don't apply here as much of that is rain falling on the land anyway and it's not 'lost' per say and if some cases harnessed.

    There is water usage in the processing, but that's to ensure everything is kept clean and no-one is poisoned, so I'm not sure it's 'wasteage' as such, and with water metering they are all having water usage to make sure not one drop is wasted (again, for purely financial reasons).

    By our calcs, 1kg of beef produced by an upland suckler system requires an intake of 0.9kg of people suitable protein (a lot of the time it's actually whiskey leftovers, smells DIVINE) + plus a big load of grass.

    We're working on the burping, mainly looking at natural feed supplements that would make them a bit less burpy and help make feed conversion to meat more efficient. GHG emissions are down 12% from 1990 at the moment.

    Sorry, still on the meaty payroll, so I'm compelled to robustly defend. :)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. chdot
    Admin

    You're making a good case for Scottish style meat production being more energy efficient than many other parts of the world where livestock eat things that are either of human consumption quality - or grown on land that could produce different food.

    More difficult to factor in all energy use for agricultural vehicles, processing, transport etc.

    Even more difficult (probably) to identify why 'home grown' isn't automatically cheaper than imported - or is it just simply that fossil fuels are still unreasonably cheap?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. Stepdoh
    Member

    Accurately calculating CO2 and CO2 equivalents is impossible, particularly when you take into account woodland offsets and the CO2 required by the grass/plants. Much of it is guesswork/assumption.

    I'm afraid, despite it being low input it still costs more to produce for various reasons such as slower animal growth, variable composition and more person intensive production. It's more of an art than a science at our level. There are subsidies that keep the prices down below a realistic level though.

    You do have to put a bit of emotion into the calculator as well. Battery cages are the most cost and environmentally efficient way of producing eggs there is, but I think many are in agreement that it's not a good thing. You have to pay in both cash and efficiency if you want better welfare.

    Sorry, this office chat must be boring the heck out of people.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. SRD
    Moderator

    Stepdoh, I did wonder when I wrote "farming is wasteful" if you would come back with response. Happy to be convinced that scottish approaches are better/getting better. Still not sure about pig farms but don't have data to argue.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "Sorry, this office chat must be boring the heck out of people"

    For anyone who is actually interested in where their food comes from, and cares about the wuality of what they eat, as well as the quality of life whatever they're eating had before it landed on their plate, it's actually pretty interesting...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. tarmac jockey
    Member

    Anth, I tried photographing the foxes this morning from the office, but the Canon Ixus 860IS proved inadequate. The foxes are located in between the Governor's House and St Andrew's House. The best reference is the rounded stone support column. I hope to bring the Canon's big brother to get a printable shot sometime soon.

    Posted 13 years ago #

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