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Treading warily...cycle and 'demonstration effect'

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  1. SRD
    Moderator

    We've had various discussions on here about women cycling (or not) and lots of other general discussions about 'how to encourage people to cycle' or perhaps better put 'how to support those who want to cycle but don't'.

    However, I've also been struck by a number of (honest) comments to the effect of 'my partner/wife' needs the car for the kids; will be using car for nursery run etc.

    I'm not asking you to justify/explain your partners' preferences for the car (really - I'm sure there are lots of good reasons). I'm also not trying to be holier than thou. We don't have a car because we don't have licenses/haven't had time to try and get one in this country. So I bike/bus/walk because that's my only choice if I want to get about.

    But, if die-hard cycling advocates like you guys, who know so clearly the benefits of cycling, can't get your other halves out there, what hope in hell do we have of convincing the general public?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. recombodna
    Member

    My other half walks cycles and buses everywhere. ( She took my van out once and it came back minus a large part of the front grille and bumper but i don't speak of those days as it upsets me too much) ;-)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. wingpig
    Member

    I meant to post on the thing yesterday - wife currently drives past the nursery a few hundred yards away then on to work, though she does walk him there then return for the car when she has time.
    One thing I mean to do sometime is investigate how long it would take to get to my wife's work by public transport. It's reputed to be "over an hour" but the bicycling-time is also reputed to be about an hour, whereas I've done it in twenty. The problem with that is that it used Willowbrae Road, which might seem unattractive to non-habitual-cyclists even though the vaguely-parallel alternatives involve lots of extra up and down bits. As the car can quite happily sit outside the house all day the secondhand turbo trainer in the dining random crap room can hopefully be used to get her confident of her legs by spring so that she can at least try riding in. She's only in three days a week so I could probably get enough extra time worked on Monday and Tuesday to be able to deal with the boy's drop-offs and/or pick-ups more regularly to let her experiment with non-driving commute methods.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. Smudge
    Member

    My better half doesn't ride, struggled to learn as a girl and doesn't need to. Quite happy for me to ride (though I think she worries sometimes about the dangers of the commute!) but car to station and train to work *is* the sensible option for her so there is no incentive/need.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. spitters
    Member

    @SRD - whoa...
    if I can't get my other half out there?
    My other hald did a spot of cycling along the canal to Riccarton before the extra time it took plus the shower/change at the other end simply meant she had to stay later and get home later as a result.
    It also meant she couldn't stop on the way home (an hour or even just half an hour earlier than by bike) and fill the boot with the weekly shopping rather than having to pick up shopping each day limited by space in panniers.
    Now baby 2 is here and she is returning to work she has said she wants to get back on the bike before the office shifts out to the outskirts of Glasgow and driving will be the only option (no direct public transport - clever choice ya funch of bannies)
    But as she still has to get home as fast as possible to give the 6 month old a feed (and the grandparents a break) that won't be soon...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    I did get my other half cyclnig. Then a muppet in a Saxo deliberately swerved his car at me as I chaperoned her to the office and she developed the fear of busy roads. We then moved somewhere without accessible cycle routes and at the top of a big hill. Cycling fell out of favour completely.

    Moving to Duddingston helped, but there are still roads to negotiate to access the good off-road paths. To get to work by bus requires either two buses and a short walk through an undesirable part of town (her time as a fiscal years back means she has a 'crime-orientated' view of the city); or one bus and a longer walk, also through poor parts of the city (which are worse in winter being dimly lit).

    So bike still equals 'scary'.
    Bus/walk equals longer journey time and perception of danger.
    Car is the quickest option (quicker even than bike, I've raced her) and she has free parking.

    But. We are making strides with the bike again having got the car that can carry them on the roof. We can take the bikes to off-road paths, or quiet Borders country lanes. The bike-fitness and confidence will return, and hopefully, maybe late summer, we might try commuting again.

    All of which is a long-winded way of saying that no matter who we're trying to convince about cycling, there are usually circumstances, and a number of them aggregating. Which means for each person we really need to tailor the reasoning. Perhaps that's why posters telling people to cycle fall down.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. Baldcyclist
    Member

    My wife is a nurse, so leaves at 6am and gets home at 9.40pm. Not really any scope for cycle commuting, or even public transport because of where and times she works.

    I have tried to get her out on a bike at the weekend, even bought a couple of cheap MTBs for us to pootle around on about 3 years ago. She never took to it, gives me 'that look' when I suggest it now. Reckon those bikes have done less than 100 miles.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. Nelly
    Member

    Alison is about to sell her car, as she has done so much walking / bussing in the last year that she rarely uses it.

    No chance of cycling, she doesnt do the 'windswept' look.

    Also, and on a serious point, she has been put off by the numbers of people we know who have been knocked off their bike.

    I have stopped telling her about my near misses, but I cant help friends relating stories to her of their bike v car encounters when we meet up.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. cb
    Member

    My other half doesn't cycle to work, but she does take the bus, sometimes walks, never drives.

    Re. cycling, feeling unsafe is the main issue, probably followed by the practicalities of 'what to wear', etc.

    It would be a pretty easy and safe route for her (as I have pointed out!) and I think she could be persuaded, at least some of the time during the summer.

    She does cycle occasionally, for lesuire and we have been on a few touring holidays in the past.

    Changing from her slightly-too-big-for-her, cross barred, toe-overlap, bike to a folding bike made her more confident.

    We largely chose where to live based on good bus connections (excellent where we are), ability to walk into town and reach local facilities very quickly.

    Due to only one of us cycling it means I tend to walk and take the bus a lot more than I might otherwise.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. Morningsider
    Member

    Ms M gets to and from work numerous ways - including walk, run, bus and car. She also very occasionally cycles, usually during the school summmer holdays when the weather is nice and traffic a bit quieter. The main reasons she doesn't cycle more are:

    1. Scared of traffic on main roads
    2. Does not want to appear in public looking windswept/sweaty

    She comes from a family where car is king. I have had a "good" influence on her with regards sustainable transport choices, but daily cycling seems a step too far.

    It is amazing the influence that family can have. My 7 year old nephew (Ms M's Sister's son) flatly refused to believe that I "could cycle faster than a car" - so I raced him (driven by his mum) across town. You should have seen his face when he realised I had got into town before him - he wouldn't have been more surprised if I had turned up with a dinosaur.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. sallyhinch
    Member

    speaking as a female with a not-really-cycling male other half (he'll go out for a nice ride in a circle, not willing to ride 5 miles to the nearest shop unless it's a really gorgeous day) I wonder if we're confusing the issue here? I can't really persuade my husband to do *anything*, frankly, and the more I try the more likely he is to dig his heels in. So in the interest of marital harmony he tolerates the fact that I'm the madwoman on the bike and I tolerate the fact that he'd rather be in a tin box than on the road. I live in hope but I'm not expecting any change any time soon.

    On the other hand, if partners are the ones with responsibilities for shopping and kids, and that's the problem rather than fear, then maybe that's something you can change? I know that one of the reasons I can get away with doing most of my trips by bike is because he does the big Tesco shop in the car. Can the cycling half do some of the kid-ferrying, shopping etc. leaving their partner a simpler journey to and from work? Once they've got used to that, they probably won't want to go back to driving, and then the battle's more or less won...

    I also wouldn't underestimate the effect switching to the right bike has. Which may not be the same bike as you think they should have ... whatever puts a sparkle in their eye.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. Min
    Member

    "On the other hand, if partners are the ones with responsibilities for shopping and kids, "

    Touché...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. LaidBack
    Member

    I must have been persuasive as both my wife and daughter do cycle.

    Daughter re-discovered it once I got her the 'right bike'. This is the 7 speed Dawes Duchess with basket, stand and half chain guard (we got from Leith Cycles).

    Using our (pre Laid Back Bikes) tandem meant that I could do a taxi service and when my wife was working early shifts at a care home on Sunday morning. I often did the giving a lift thing. Journey was only from centre to Cannan Lane but public transport on Sunday is rationed in our 24/7 society. She did cycle her own bike before she had fall in France two years ago. Since then she feels that the traffic is worse. This is re-enforced by her friends who note that their driving experience is not as nice as they think it should be. For some odd reason people think that if driving is a hassle then cycling is worse.... This is the same reasoning that suggests that if cycling is bad then cycling a recumbent is worse / more dangerous etc.

    Daughter has introduced her friends to cycling. Couple of runs out to Ratho with a solo bike and tandem (when 15). This of course was never mentioned to their parents as they would never be allowed their off spring to cycle roads normally despite having had bike training in schools. Daughter says she looks at her bike as transport but then tells me how fast she came up Johnston Terrace.

    Car ownership is targeted at young people though - many of her friends are learning to drive having had their parents discourage them from bikes! Difficult to compete with 17 years of being driven around town which some are. This is a practical demo that goes on every day preparing the next generation to expect cars to be there. We'd have as much chance removing microwave ovens.

    Overall I don't see a huge change of attitude. As noted elsewhere road cycling is political in the UK and invisible in many parts of Scotland outside of some cities.

    Fear still reigns supreme - an attitude backed up by the adventure sports writer in The Scotsman who said he's rather ski a black run than cross this city by bike. Cycling is something other people do and I must admit that my business is reliant on people who are already converted to the idea of cycling.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. Baldcyclist
    Member

    My wife is of the mind that cycling is dangerous. I have been told in no uncertain terms that if we ever have children I will NOT be allowed to be tow them on roads in one of those trailer things.
    Fair to say though that I am maybe not the best advert for cycling being safe given my incidents and over the last wee while.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. crowriver
    Member

    My partner cycles to work as part of a bike/train commute. She used to walk or get the bus to the station, as did I some years ago. She also cycles on short trips around town, eg. for a swim or to the library/shops/etc. She uses a Raleigh Swift folder (did I mention I picked up two, identical "his'n'hers" bikes second hand?) for that and I recently got her a rear basket to use with the spring clip on her rack. Previously she had a wicker number hung from the handlebars, which was fine on her hybridised MTB but a bit precarious on a small wheeled bike.

    We regularly go on family outings by bicycle when the weather's up to it. She has a Hamax rear child seat more or less permanently fixed to her hybridised MTB.

    We have never owned a car in this country, though we do in her home country. We used to have a membership of the City Car Club, but found we hardly used it so not worth the bother. We both come from families where the 'car is king' as noted above. The only relative who cycles is her uncle, who is semi-retired and pootles to work on an old city bike*. Apart from him, I recall my grandfather saying he used to cycle to work about 20 odd miles, but bought a car in the 1960s (along with just about everyone else).

    She uses buses more than I do, such as this afternoon: I'm at work, she has to take the two kids to the west end. Bus takes the strain. I tend to just transport children individually, so can use tagalong/child seat. Hope to 'soup up' the Ute 'soon'** though to take both kids at once.

    * And my 8 year old niece, who cycles independently to her friends' houses. My kids cycle, but not independently, yet.
    ** Talked about it for yonks but actually doing it is taking a while...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. SRD
    Moderator

    Thanks folks for a reasoned discussion. I do understand that for many people there are good reasons to drive (and some not so good). But I also wonder about effectiveness of campaigns to get people cycling. I did like that Copenhagen poster someone linked to recently 'its safer on your bike than on the sofa' (or similar).

    A more positive thread would have been "who have you supported to start cycling lately"? eg family, work colleagues, school training like lots of people said they signed up for. Or, more concretely, what ways can we actually encourage real people little by little? (but that's a bit big societyish..)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. wee folding bike
    Member

    Wife is from Coatbridge.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. chdot
    Admin

    "Wife is from Coatbridge"

    That gets lost in translation east of Harthill.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  19. wee folding bike
    Member

    A few years ago it was the most over weight town in Scotland where I get photographed for cycling and known to all and sundry as the bike guy.

    Vegetables have to come from under the ground and have the beejeezus boiled out of them. Nothing green can be eaten. Cheese only comes in "mild".

    A vegetarian meal is deep fried fish or ham salad.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  20. sallyhinch
    Member

    I got two friends in the village cycling and in turn that triggered a bit of cycling (in the summer) among their teenage kids - suddenly the they could get down to see their pals more easily and (with the right bike) get into town too - it's amazing how much easier 8 miles is when you're not on a full-sus mountain bike. It was a mixture of them wanting to be fit, going out for a natter and a ride, seeing me do it while not looking like a spaceperson, and Dumfries & Galloway's spectacularly empty roads. That said, neither friend has made the jump to cycling as transport particularly and we've not exactly started a trend although I live in hope of making a few more converts. I've had people say they envy me, seeing me ride around on my bike everywhere. I think it's a matter of the time it takes to go by bike (and the weather!) as much as anything else - with the best will in the world, it's quicker to drive anywhere where we are than to cycle.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  21. LivM
    Member

    I returned to cycling about 6 years ago after a gap of about 10 years post-Uni and as a result of moving to Edinburgh and disliking cobbles with my skinny tyred bike. There was a temporal correlation between me getting a new bike and getting a new (cycling) boyfriend, although he maintains that actually I'm a bad influence, as he's gone from 2 to 6 bikes in the 6 years we've been together.

    I cycle to work, every day unless the weather's truly foul or I'm unwell, in which case I get the bus and grumble continuously about how much faster I'd be if I was on my bike (and I'm not at all fast).

    I go out on 20-milers rides once a month, and lead them every now and then.

    I cycle into town or doing errands, sometimes (although often I walk). I use the car once or twice a week, usually in the evening or when I have to go somewhere and be smart, and every few months when we go a longer distance to visit family. It's an expensive luxury (would definitely be cheaper to use taxis and hire cars, on an annual basis) but one I'm prepared to pay taxes and so on for. Taxman definitely gains from me :)

    I'm not freaked out by traffic; I avoid it if possible by sensible route-choice, and cover my bike with bright lights to try to minimise risk of SMIDSY, and I do what I can to encourage others at work to cycle.

    If I had a small child to wrangle, or a longer distance to travel to work, my current strategy might not work, but time will tell.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  22. SRD
    Moderator

    "she doesnt do the 'windswept' look." x 2

    Should introduce them to the two lady bromptonistas I work with, who always look uber-stylish and entirely unwindswept.

    kids/groceries: we manage fine with panniers and occasional trailer expeditions to big shops. presume we buy about the usual amount of milk/juice, probably more beer and wine than some, lots of fruit etc. Bungees great for nappies/loo roll etc on back.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    Two??

    Do they both wear feathers?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  24. ruggtomcat
    Member

    Got my ex cycling by dint of fixing up a beater and introducing them to the off road paths of Edinburgh (the path along the Esk always delights new riders) and they used it for commuting after that, however since we broke up I think its declined and stopped now they don't have anyone to do their servicing for them.

    Keen cyclist, runner and climber are some of the qualities I look for in a partner these days, bloody hard to find! Especially in this country of chip guzzling smokers.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  25. Nelly
    Member

    @srd I dont think a brompton will do it! She is not interested, spends all her leisure time doing ballet actually - definitely an indoor gal.

    @laidback - re kids learning to drive, I wonder if the eyewatering cost of insurance will turn people off cars and on to other modes?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  26. chdot
    Admin

    "I wonder if the eyewatering cost of insurance will turn people off cars and on to other modes?"

    Must do for some people.

    Others get added to parents' insurance - not always truthfully about 'main user'.

    Others don't bother with insurance...

    As has been said - 'transport choices are not always rational'.

    Not sure how many people buy cars (especially their first one) for 'transport' reasons - even if they think that's what they are doing.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  27. gembo
    Member

    apparently you can get a smart box in a teenager's car that charges them £100 if they drive between 11pm and 5 am. Also measures their braking speed etc. This knocks around a thousand pounds from the cost of insurance.

    Tread softly because you tread on my dreams

    Posted 13 years ago #

  28. Roibeard
    Member

    Progression for us was as follows...

    I had a bike abandoned in the flat by a house guest. I rode it and discovered that it was quicker than walking, and also that maintenance is A Good Thing - see threads passim about lack of brakes!

    I returned the abandoned bike and bought the cheapest "hybrid" I could from EBC - I don't think they were even called hybrids then!

    I started taking the eldest to school by scooter and then got her a bike for the short, half mile commute.

    Once she outgrew that bike, we got her an Islabike and the middle one got the cascade. To aid the return from school, a bike was bought for my wife - it was hard to supervise the children from the pavement!

    Then two more Islabikes for middle and youngest, cycle day trips and bikes mostly displacing the car and bus for ferrying the children around.

    Ruth still doesn't like taking the kids into town by herself, although shorter runs are fine - she is now going in to Rose Street, etc on her own, but isn't confident to look after both herself and the kids.

    So, we're mostly converted to utility cycling, and I know it will stand the children in good stead for the future.

    Oh, and there seems to be an extension of this beyond the family - on Thursday & Friday I was sent by the church to Livingston for a course with the minister. 20 miles each way, for both days, and I got him on a Halfords bike! Despite not being a cyclist at all, and my commute usually being a fraction of this, we made it!

    Granted, only 10mph or so (along the Union Canal mostly), but still amazing - the bicycle is a remarkably efficient machine, even for the novice. Only issue - he's discovered that his pillow-soft saddle isn't comfortable...

    I'm still mostly a utility cyclist from the start - cycling to get from A to B cheaply and quickly. Recreational cyclists, particularly long distance tourers still seem a bit odd, but the purchase of the Pino last year might have marked a softening of that utility only stance...

    ;-)

    Robert

    Posted 13 years ago #

  29. cb
    Member

    Well, we had an excursion by bike last night. In the dark and everything.

    We make reasonably regular visits to a relative who lives a 25ish minute walk away; 20 mins if you walk briskly. It's a pleasant walk (through the Astley Ainslie), but last night our departure was delayed until after 9.30pm so the suggestion was made to take the car.

    I suggested cycling (as I often do, it has become a bit of a running joke, usually to be ignored). The suggestion wasn't immediately discarded so I squickly scrabbled around getting a bike and lights ready before it was too late to change minds.

    We had a very pleasant cycle there and back, along mainly deserted streets. Definitely a bit of a buzz and small sense of acheivement when we got back in.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  30. chdot
    Admin

    "Definitely a bit of a buzz and small sense of acheivement when we got back in"

    Well done.

    Night/dark isn't an obvious choice for a 'first' ride, but certainly less traffic.

    Helps if you know where the potholes are in AAH!

    Posted 13 years ago #

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