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"Any UK law on cycle helmets should apply only to kids"

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    Not sure if other people have noticed this, but are too 'polite' to post(?)

    Doesn't seem to have been picked up by the media much.

    Anyone who's been on CCE since the early day will probably know that helmets have often been contentious and are now only referred to obliquely.

    There was a time when things got a bit out of hand and threads had to be closed.

    There is now an implicit 'understanding' that helmets is a matter of personal choice and calling people names because they say 'must or 'must not' wear one is against CCE rules (etc.)

    That said, a new report has been published online via the BMJ -

    http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/02/21/medethics-2011-100085 (abstract only)

    Headline above +

    "
    They agree that legislation for children may be warranted: the evidence in favour of the protection afforded by cycle helmets in this age group "is strong," and younger children may not be mature enough to make such decisions for themselves, they say.

    But the evidence for adults is "not as clear cut as many advocates of cycle helmet legislation seem to think

    "

    http://www.sciencecodex.com/any_uk_law_on_cycle_helmets_should_apply_only_to_kids-87468

    Comment with care.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  2. crowriver
    Member

    "If competent adults wish to cycle with their hair (or their shiny pates) exposed to the wind, rain, and sky, then they ought to be able to do so without interference from the government or anyone else," they conclude.

    Seems sensible to me.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  3. custard
    Member

    makes sense to me (and I say this as an adult helmet wearer)
    though I will add fuel and say my helmet saved me(at the very least) a sore head from my last incident.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  4. Uberuce
    Member

    We live in a country with socialised healthcare, which I declare to be a splendificous and vurryvurrygood thing, but also that it means the libertarian argument is tricky to apply unless you're brazen enough to admit that you want to have your cake and eat it.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  5. wee folding bike
    Member

    Über,

    So can you show that plastic hats would reduce costs to the NHS?

    And what about people smoking, drinking alcohol and eating too many pies?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  6. amir
    Member

    A few concerns:

    - you see an awful lot of kids (and adults) wearing their helmets incorrectly. Does this nullify any benefit?

    - how young can children wear helmets before neck strength is an issue?

    - it has been said that helmets (like seatbelts etc) decrease the user's aversion to risk. Is this effect (if it exists) greater in kids?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  7. ARobComp
    Member

    As a helmet wearer (most of the time - I would take it off on a quiet country path or long single use cycle path or something and I rarely wear one on the continent) I really believe that it's up to whoever is riding the bike, however I do think that kids tend to fall off their bikes quite a bit when they're young.

    I think that helmets for them would be a sensible plan just so they don't get put off by smacking their heads!

    When we used to teach sailing we used helmets because people used to get smacked by the boom quite a bit until they were used to it. I think that the same is possible to apply to climbing or cycling, basically when you're new to it the likelyhood of you knowing how to "take a fall" is low. However as you improve the risk of that sort of accidental bump diminishes.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  8. Uberuce
    Member

    I could talk about the dilemmas socialised healthcare brings up for days, tee hee...

    The point I hinge my argument on is that if a person jauntily takes Avoidable Risk X and falls foul of it, then their resulting healthcare is paid for by everyone else. If everyone else is also jauntily taking ARX, then that's fine, but if they aren't, I think there's some mickey taking going on.

    In other words, we have a moral obligation to look after ourselves, and if we choose not to do so any particular aspect, we should either opt out of socialised healthcare relating to it, or (treating it as insurance) fund it more.

    Smoking and drinking are already taxed to high heaven, so that broadly takes care of itself. There's lots of exceptions, notably people who live near Dover and own a van. Taxing unhealthy food would be a complete nightmare of definitions, but would likewise meet that end.

    In the specific case of going lidless, helmets are so rubbish (impact of 6m/s is it?) that I wouldn't argue for fractures or brain damage being eligible, but I'd say being billed(or having insurance) for cuts and scrapes above the helmet line being patched up at A&E is a reasonable trade for being left alone.

    I concede that Schrodinger's Cake is a logically coherent position to take, and certainly a lot less messy than mine. Mine's not so much a single slippery slope as a skate park covered in grease.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  9. steveo
    Member

    The 6 m/s is vertical drop not horizontal velocity... Just saying.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  10. "Smoking and drinking are already taxed to high heaven"

    But those taxes are not set aside for the health service (which is an argument in itself, maybe they should be).

    The natural progression of the argument though is that you can only participate in risky sports etc if you can afford to pay for it, and therefore you are effectively banning poor people from being allowed to, say, cycle lidless, and the reason they may cycle lidless is because they're poor and could only just about afford the bike (as their main means of transport as they can't afford a car or bus fares) but couldn't afford to fork out for a helmet as well.

    Also, where is the line drawn on dangerous activities? A broken leg playing football in the park because you weren't wearing shing guards?

    It's a slippery slope to a disenfranchising pseudo-privatised healthcare service.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  11. Uberuce
    Member

    I thought/guessed they put a head-weighted object inside the helmet and dropped it so that it was at 6 m/s when it hit.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  12. steveo
    Member

    6 m/s is (roughly) the speed an object would accelerate to if dropped from about 2m.

    I believe they hit them with an anvil in much the same way a motor cycle helmet is tested.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  13. Or, what Headthingy (can't remember the name of the organisation) do in schools... Put eggs in little carts down a slope unprotected, and then in little swaddled helmets.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  14. custard
    Member

    Also, where is the line drawn on dangerous activities? A broken leg playing football in the park because you weren't wearing shing guards?

    Ive worked for employers who have in the contract that sick pay wont be paid for injuries from sports,avtivities etc
    very vague wording that could cover just about anything

    Posted 13 years ago #
  15. lionfish
    Member

    I've never posted on this topic before, but I've witnessed how heated it gets - I'll try to be careful!

    Personally: I generally wear one. Sometimes forget to pick it up, and don't always bother on quiet routes. I generally find it really annoying.

    My opinion:

    1. I think it seems quite likely that helmets will help reduce some injuries and deaths*** (the nuances of impact speeds, cyclist confidence, etc all seem a little pointless).

    2. Getting the bus or car instead of cycling is harmful (less exercise, more dangerous for the remaining cyclists through more traffic and no 'group' effect).

    3. Making helmets mandatory is very likely to reduce the number of people cycling - I can't imagine you'll ever head towards Amsterdam-numbers if helmets were mandatory*.

    So putting those together, for the individual** rating the courses of action (excluding things like how annoying carrying a helmet around is, how sweaty it can make your head, etc):
    First: Ride a bike wearing a helmet (best option).
    Second: Ride a bike not wearing a helmet (probably not quite as safe).
    Third: Don't ride a bike at all (very dangerous, far more likely to have a variety of illnesses associated with lack of exercise).

    For society, the best option is to have as many people cycling as possible (regardless of helmet use) - ideally I guess everyone would have helmets on, although if you improved infrastructure sufficiently they would be unnecessary. The worst option would be to have few people cycling (with or without helmets).

    In summary: In my opinion the health benefits of cycling without a helmet still outweigh the associated dangers.

    And so: Individuals should be encouraged to, but making it mandatory would harm more people (through no exercise, pollution, traffic, etc) than it would protect.

    Regarding Uberuce's point about the NHS etc. The path of excluding people who do an "avoidable risk", or at least tax them sufficiently is dangerous. Poor diet has already been cited. Would those who don't do enough exercise be barred from the NHS if they get a related disease? Would people who have hurt themselves while doing exercise also be excluded?**** Basically most illnesses/injuries can be avoided to an extent, and none of us are perfect. I imagine very few people would be permitted treatment under the imagined system.
    At the end of the day: Treating everyone (however stupid they've been - and people can do really stupid things) seems like the best policy :)

    Thanks all!

    Mike

    * There are some bits of evidence from countries that did enforce helmets - although I guess this is confounded by other factors too. But anecdotally, things like the London bike hire scheme would completely fail. My office mate when asked said she'd not ride a bike because of helmet hair! Also it makes cycling look dangerous, etc.

    ** I'm excluding that people might not wear helmets because they feel it gives cycling a poor image, and are willing to take the small risk to encourage the 'normalisation' of cycling.

    *** If you cycle sufficiently slowly (as many people appear to) helmets are probably even less important (especially if it's off road etc).

    **** Another example is pedestrians not wearing helmets - 100s of pedestrians die each year from avoidable head injuries...

    Posted 13 years ago #
  16. Uberuce
    Member

    @anth: comes out in the wash, doesn't it? If extra money is going into the NHS because of smoker's and drinker's illnesses, then it must be taken from any of the other spending projects that their duty feeds into. And them some. Last I looked, booze'n'ciggies turned an unhealthy profit for HMG, which is duty's point in the first place.

    Regarding sport, note that I said it's fine to be covered if everyone's doing ARX. I was going to add a proviso after that to the effect that there's almost always a murky ground of [some percentage] doing ARX, since almost nothing is done or not done universally. But I forgot.

    The natural progression of my argument is that you can always partake in risky sport, risky diet, risky drug use - libertarian streak a mile wide, here.

    My socialist streak, schizophrenic as it is to have one, says that healthcare, as a shared resource, should be something you avoid wasting by taking unnecessary risks. If, and it's a beefy if, there's consensus as to what's unnecessary, then government intervention is appropriate.

    The mutant offspring of this is that you can do what you like, but if it's considered too risky, the consequences are yours to insure against beforehand or or deal with after the fact. I don't like body sovereignty being interfered with but I don't like people abusing a shared resource.

    I wouldn't describe the impoverished cyclist as 'jauntily taking Avoidable Risk X'. Not much jaunty about being so skint you can't buy a lid for the work run.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  17. Fair points all (I tihnk we've reached a stage here where the helmet debate can, for the most part, be indulged in in a civilised manner).

    I'd only mention two:

    "If you cycle sufficiently slowly (as many people appear to) helmets are probably even less important (especially if it's off road etc)."

    Sadly impact speeds aren't really a 'nuance' (if they were there would be no need for speed limits) but rather a matter of physics - higher impact speed = greater damage. If helmets are only ostensibly rated up to a certain impact speed, and there's an admission that above that they really aren't too effective (hence the reason manufacturers, not a single one, says that a helmet will save your life in collision with a car despite the fact it would be a wonderful selling point), then ironically it's at those slower speeds when helmets actually are more effective. The slow speed tumble that may result in a cut head etc.

    "Another example is pedestrians not wearing helmets - 100s of pedestrians die each year from avoidable head injuries"

    Indeed. And car drivers, huge numbers of head-related injuries in car crashes. I still find it odd that cyclists are singled out in this debate.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  18. @Uberuce "I wouldn't describe the impoverished cyclist as 'jauntily taking Avoidable Risk X'. Not much jaunty about being so skint you can't buy a lid for the work run."

    Aha. Gotcha. It's an interesting area this.

    "Regarding sport, note that I said it's fine to be covered if everyone's doing ARX"

    Fair enough, and I accept there's that murky ground, just pondering if it creates an over-paternalistic attitude of some sort whereby someone in that murky ground decides that (for example) playing football without shinguards might lead to having to pay for medical care, and so they wear shinguards, making the percentage in ARX drop, and so actually more likely that those playing football without shinguards will have to pay, which in itself leads to more actually wearing shinguards.

    Trust me, I suffer the same schizophrenic streak.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  19. Uberuce
    Member

    Odd indeed. As Dave says, cyclists are an out-group, so we're at the mercy of a consensus much bigger than we. If CCE was the UK, then I reckon the consensus would be that helmets are mostly guff so it wouldn't even be considered. Even I, apparently the hardliner in the thread, only think that lidless riders should pay for scrapes since more serious injuries can't reliably be blamed on bareheadedness.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  20. lionfish
    Member

    @anth - I didn't mean to suggest that speed wasn't important. I just feel that the massive gain in health from cycling far outweighs the tiny effect wearing a helmet has. I retract that bit of my statement :).

    So do people think it will become mandatory in the UK (mainland)? I assume it won't (especially now there's the hire scheme, etc), but the article does seems quite worrying.

    Also I might have to stop wearing my helmet in protest if they do consider it!!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  21. There's an outside possibility it would become a requirement for under-16s, but for adults, I don't think any government is actually going to take that step. At least I'd hope not... (mind you, I write the Uneasy Riders thingy in citycycling, and that supposes a UK under President Clarkson where cycling is banned altogether).

    Posted 13 years ago #
  22. Darkerside
    Member

    @uberuce. I'm clearly at the completely opposite end of opinion to you with regards to paying for the NHS, particularly at the exceptionally pointy end of A&E.

    Assume that a cyclist without a helmet turns up at A&E (under their own power) and is charged for having cuts and scrapes above the helmet line seen to. Ignore the logistics of payment, of having to train medical staff to assess exactly what kind of injuries would have been prevented by a helmet (and are therefore treated for free) and of what happens if someone refuses to pay.

    Consider other cases coming via A&E who incur costs to the NHS for incidents that they could have avoided. Do we charge overdoses? Fights? Victims of assault? Someone who called an ambulance because A&E is nearer home? Domestic violence which occurs every night without fail? Those with lung disorders caused by a lifetime working in mines? Those with exactly the same symptoms but caused by smoking?

    You would end up creating a monstrously beaurocratic admin thing at the very pointy end of the NHS, where there isn't enough time/money/staff to treat people as it is.

    The current system is slightly unfair, but it's unfair in the sense that those who need help always get it without question, and is paid for by those who often don't need it. That to me is much better than some kind of pay as you go arrangement, which is brutally fair.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  23. Darkerside
    Member

    That, ah, ended up being longer than anticipated. But at least it's not about helmets!

    I'll go and have serious words with myself about thread drift.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  24. lionfish
    Member

    Darkerside: my post was frighteningly long (so long I think it scared most people from posting here :). I think that's the last time I'll be posting such contentious messages. From now on it'll be 'wildlife of the day' posts (saw a cormorant on the canal last week :).

    Posted 13 years ago #
  25. Uberuce
    Member

    @lionfish: bear in mind I'm proposing the withdrawal of free treatment as an alternative to banning a specific activity or enforcing safety equipment/procedures. It couldn't be a general policy for the reasons you detailed.

    @Darkerside: how many of your examples would you say pass the 'jauntily chosen' requirement?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  26. Darkerside
    Member

    None. But you're putting an awful lot of pressure on a&e staff when your decision criteria includes jaunty!

    I saw a good bunch of oystercatchers this afternoon

    Posted 13 years ago #
  27. Uberuce
    Member

    I do have the comfy blanket of knowing that I'm a voice in the wilderness, so my musings aren't going to affect the coalface chaps and chappesses like your good self.

    That said, it does stick in my craw (not Dave) that the likes of that racist idiot who tried to beat up my absurdly hard African pal because he had a white girlfriend got his jaw rewiring and dental work paid for by not-racist-idiots. CF: drunk drivers yaddayaddayadda.

    Posted 13 years ago #

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