CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

First Scotland to discontinue East Lothian and Midlothian services

(35 posts)

  1. crowriver
    Member

    AS many as 200 jobs are under threat after a bus company announced it plans to close one of its depots and significantly reduce the size of another.

    The proposal also means a number of services run by First Scotland East in both East Lothian and Midlothian will be axed.

    The company said it had come to a difficult decision after years of poor trading performance, blaming a “challenging” economic climate, high fuel prices and cuts in funding.

    First Scotland East said it will discontinue several services at the same time as it started a consultation process with trade unions about possible redundancies at its Dalkeith and Musselburgh bus depots.

    The travel firm proposes closing the Dalkeith depot, and significantly scaling back its Musselburgh depot.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/first-scotland-to-discontinue-east-lothian-and-midlothian-services-1-2211331

    http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/scotland_east/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=5451&conf=0

    Posted 13 years ago #
  2. steveo
    Member

    Are these routes already served by LRT? Shame for the drivers but no great loss for the rest of us...

    Posted 13 years ago #
  3. amir
    Member

    This is bad at a time when we need to get more folk out of their cars and using alternatives. The excuse for commuting from rural parts is often that there is no public transport. I suspect that LRT will not want to or be able to step in on many of theost services.

    The depot in Dalkeith is proposed for closure. This has long been lined up for Sainsburys

    Posted 13 years ago #
  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    They can take the train or the tram instead. Oh. Wait!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  5. crowriver
    Member

    List of services affected here:

    http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/new_news_initiatives/attach_1333370358_2411_East%20and%20Mid%20Services.pdf

    Midlothian comes off worst, by the looks of it.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

  7. steveo
    Member

    I have some sympathy with First having to compete against a company whose main aim isn't profit, it distorts the market forces (race to the bottom). However They don't help themselves they invariably run dirty old buses and their drivers... If you can't compete on price you have to compete some other way or get out of the game, Fist seem unwilling to offer a better standard than they provide even equalling the standard of Lothian Buses would put them in a better position when both turn up at once. So Bye bye.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  8. recombodna
    Member

    Makes the roads slightly safer for all of us.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  9. amir
    Member

    Should (do) bus companies pay less tax on fuel?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  10. steveo
    Member

    Don't think so, don't see why they should. Their customers are using it just the same as any other driver simply pass this cost on.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  11. amir
    Member

    Exactly - this should help to reduce ticket prices thus making buses more attractive compared to private transport.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  12. steveo
    Member

    I'm not sure how much of a difference would be seen at the ticket price. It would really depend on the ratio of fuel litres to individual passengers. I doubt it would help in Edinburgh since the amount of fuel in the ticket price (i don't think) is that high given the ticket prices have not really tracked to the oil price. It might help rural operators but the cynic in me thinks it will just go to the staff party and not to the passenger.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  13. crowriver
    Member

    'Ian Craig, managing director of Lothian Buses, said: "We are aware of the unfortunate developing situation at First Scotland East. We will be reviewing the impact of these planned changes to our own network and in the coming days will assess if there are potential opportunities to enhance our network in areas where services may otherwise be lost." '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-17583509

    Posted 13 years ago #
  14. lionfish
    Member

    From a practical point of view, rather than give buses tax-free fuel (maybe complicated to organise/implement), just give them funding, which we already do. If you want more help, give them more money (maybe extra should be provided as fuel prices go up).

    We took the bus from Perth to Scone at the weekend, the bus was ~hourly and had ~8 people on. In 2 minutes 5x that number would have driven the same route. I'm not sure how to get people back into public transport. Once the investment's been made in a car, using a bus doesn't make much sense.

    I think in Germany and other European countries there are annual free-travel passes. This might be a good compromise: Once you've spent the initial up-front cost of this pass, the choice between fuel/hassle/parking of a car vs 'free' public transport seems much more favourable... if that makes sense.

    Anyway, we had a fantastic weekend camping near Scone, and didn't need a car to get out in the countryside!

    Posted 13 years ago #
  15. steveo
    Member

    Free bus passes with your "Road Tax"? Bump up VED mahoosively and issue every one with a "free" bus pass, it then becomes a cost vs convenience issue. If you need to use the car you're going to pay for it otherwise you can get the bus any where for free. Might reduce over crowding on the trains too.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  16. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I have some sympathy with First having to compete against a company whose main aim isn't profit

    In "defence" of Lothian Buses, it's still a private company that has to return a dividend to its shareholders. The setup is a bit weird, it gives the shareholders (majority Edinburgh council, token shareholdings from East / Mid / West Lothian) a fixed amount based on revenue, regardless of whether it is in profit or loss for the year. This arrangement works in LB's favour most years when it is in the black as it can re-invest in its business.

    I also wouldn't say that competition with LB is the issue here - many of the routes affected have no crossover with LB. And where there is competition - why would anyone want to take a First Bus within town when there is the option of taking a LB? They long ago gave up trying to compete with LB after the "bus wars" when they tried to muscle out LB and were counter-muscled. And now they offer a rubbish service in crap old buses. It's a pretty simple choice.

    I don't feel too much pity for First as a company. If they can't turn a profit on a largely monopoly service after years and years of minimal investment in their service then perhaps there's something wrong with their business model. And any company that thought introducing bendy busses en masse to the wide, expansive streets of Edinburgh with their sweeping corners needs its head examined

    Posted 13 years ago #
  17. amir
    Member

    "why would anyone want to take a First Bus within town when there is the option of taking a LB? "

    We often use the First 95 service to get into town in preference to the LRT 3 service. The bus is actually nicer, it doesn't stop as much (it is an X service) and it has fewer disruptive passengers. It is also currently cheaper. When First ran the 81 service through Eskbank, the buses were often in much worse condition though.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  18. Marianne
    Member

    "why would anyone want to take a First Bus within town when there is the option of taking a LB? "

    Why would I wait an extra 10 minutes in the cold for a Lothian Bus when a First one going to the same place arrives first? Plus on the route to my parent's house the First Bus gives (or used to give) change.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  19. Claggy Cog
    Member

    Living in south Edinburgh there are a number of First Bus routes, which will be withdrawn and I will miss them, not that I take buses often, but they invariably turn up well before a LB and are usually quicker getting from A to B. In London if you buy an Oyster card you can get a child's day ticket for a quid, schoolchildren travel free on London buses, which probably sets up a precedent in their minds, i.e. using buses or public transport is good and they will continue to do so. Many pensioners when they get their bus pass ditch the car...college/university students, who do get bus passes cheaper, perhaps would not consider getting a car if they got free travel on buses.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  20. druidh
    Member

    Living in Balerno, the FB and LRT 44's compete against each other. I try to get the FB as that gets in to town much quicker - because most folk will let it pass in order to get an LRT bus

    Posted 13 years ago #
  21. Tulyar
    Member

    First has not really worked out how to do well with rural-outer urban routes. In Cornwall the First WN MD's had a habit of resigning and starting up a locally based competing service. At Callander the old SMT operation had a 3-bus garage and local drivers so that the morning commuter trips did not run 'dead' miles, but First went to centralise (Larbert) for economies of scale.

    I suspect that Eve's and Munro will move to fill some gaps, and MacEwans might even try to get back the X95 (shudder). We may well need to work out a new model here and one that is being tried on the Isle of Wight. A big bus operation has the top quality facilities to maintain buses, and bulk buying power to run a big fleet. They provide the bus that operates from the village to a 'local' or community bus operation, who offer the local base and locally 'employed' staff. The costly issue of having to keep a spare bus to run the service when a main bus is in for its weekly service whether you run 1 or 6 buses, is also sorted.

    I found the Cornish operation - managed at the top level from BRISTOL had managers stretched over a huge geographical area, and no surprise recently to hear that Stagecoach had bought the Barnstaple Depot and taken over the main routes. Stagecoach incidently have some interesting tread lightly arrangements - in Penrith they rent space in a haulage yard instead of running their own bus garage and swap-over buses to get them serviced on the Carlisle-Penrith services. Some of First's thinking is perhaps too 'conventional' for the services they have found themselves operating?

    That said Arriva have now sold-up in Scotland, and their Former MD is now MD with McGills, who have become a significant Glasgow and Clyde Coast operator, whilst Ian Craig's brother (West Coast Motors) has made significant inroads on First's monopoly of Glasgow in North West (having just taken over John Morrow) and Henderson's is the strong player in SE quadrant/N Lanarkshire.

    Hendersons are generally OK with bikes on board outside peak times - vary handy when heading out to Strathaven from Hamilton, and West Coast officially carries bikes on some of their routes.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

  23. chdot
    Admin

  24. TonyJ
    Member

    Some of us who live in Rural West Edinburgh don't have a choice about FirstBus as Lothian won't run services here as "it isn't profitable"......

    Posted 13 years ago #
  25. steveo
    Member

    Council plans 'arms-length' bus firm for East Lothian
    East Lothian Council is considering setting up an 'arms-length' bus company following the announcement First Scotland East is withdrawing services.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-17615646

    First withdrawing could actually be good news for all involved, though why they don't just put what ever money would be needed to set up their own bus company into LRT i'm not sure.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  26. amir
    Member

    "Is council plan a fare deal?"

    http://www.eastlothiancourier.com/news/roundup/articles/2012/04/05/426692-is-council-plan-a-fare-deal/

    "More Lothian Buses services could be one solution, but East Lothian Council will need to act to ensure communities do not become only the preserve of people with cars."

    Posted 13 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    Presumably ELC still own 3% of LB(?)

    I think LB might have to rethink its flat fare policy.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  28. Tulyar
    Member

    The poor fit of a bus operation that is run from Camelon yet has huge urban centres in Livingston, Stirling, Galashiels and the capital city Edinburgh plus rural threads out to Carlisle, Dunbar and Callander (if not Killin), with services running via M8 and Aberfoyle/Drymen in to Glasgow clearly has a major management problem because of the geographic spread and variety of service profiles.

    For West Lothian I'd be looking at EM Horsborough who have quietly grown a network with a better fit to local travel patterns, and the express coach services to Glasgow (which have carried bikes) might tempt Bruce of Salsburgh, or Hendersons/McIndless to fill in from the West Side. Ian Craig's brother already has a strong position to sweep up any of the frankly useless vestigal services to Aberfoyle and Drymen, which finish too early for many commuters (last bus to Aberfoyle was befoe 17.00 last I checked. West Coast Motors runs a separate Glasgow operation but of course it provides overnight stabling and bunkering for the WCM coaches operating the shared Citylink routes from Argyll. Stirling might see one of a couple of strong independents (names escape me at present - one based in Alloa) growing

    To the South East I'd reckon that Munros in the Borders will take up the slack and Eve's looks the stronger in E Lothian.

    To be sensible Lothian should keep a focus on the services in the city itself although having a share in say an enhanced but separate operation based in jedburgh/Galashiels or Dunbar/Haddington, much in the reverse of what West Coast has done between Argyll and Glasgow might make sense, as the rural operation would get some overnight stabling for their vehicles that stay in Edinburgh and Lothian might have a reciprocal deal for the other limits of their routes (or do a route switch for places like Penicuik)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  29. cb
    Member

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/bus-firm-steps-in-to-offer-villages-lifeline-1-2269088

    "LOTHIAN Buses is riding to the rescue of marooned communities following major cutbacks by rival First Bus.

    The council-owned bus company has agreed a three-year contract to step into the public transport vacuum left behind by First Scotland East’s decision to withdraw services from several rural villages in Midlothian and East Lothian from June 10."

    Posted 13 years ago #
  30. DaveC
    Member

    I Like it:

    Maroon bus co comes to rescue of marooned communities.

    Posted 13 years ago #

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