CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Police clampdown on cyclists and maybe other infringers?

(148 posts)
  • Started 12 years ago by gembo
  • Latest reply from Murun Buchstansangur

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  1. Instography
    Member

    There's no mechanism for me to be on the road while she's on the pavement. I have to choose so I choose what I think is safest in those circumstances. In others I choose what is not safest. I ride those roads on my own partly because I'm faster without the trailer's weight and less of an obstruction without its width but also because even though I would still be safer on the pavement, my reflex is much like yours - I should obey the law. And most of the time I do. But I can understand the reluctance to say that it's OK to be on the pavement in those circumstances because once you identify one case where it's OK, the door is open to other specific circumstances. And then we're on wingpig's slippery slope.

    I guess I'm starting to wonder if that's such a bad place to be. I suppose I have to say that or accept my own hypocrisy in thinking that its OK for me to ride on the pavement (in my limited child-transporting circumstance) but not for other people. More generally, I'm wondering if we're willing to protest about the need for roads to be safer, maybe we should also be less condemnatory of people who use other, albeit illegal, infrastructure. Otherwise, we're saying that people should either ride on roads they believe (and we agree) are unsafe or stay off their bikes until it's all been fixed.

    I think the accepting coppers are interesting because, on the whole, humans make better judgements than machines. I'm sure they look at me and know that I'm breaking section whatever of whatever Act. But seeing me pulling a child (and the child is what saves me) they smile and let it slide. The legality may be a dichotomy but the system is grey. Even if I meet the copper who would want to charge me, there's no PF in the country that would proceed with it.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    @min

    "There is no analogy in driving because drivers are never ignored, are always considered when road works are put up, never have entire roads blocked off for works without warning or diversions"

    I know what you're saying, but I think some of the tram 'work' disproves that 'rule'!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  3. "I'm wondering if we're willing to protest about the need for roads to be safer, maybe we should also be less condemnatory of people who use other, albeit illegal, infrastructure. Otherwise, we're saying that people should either ride on roads they believe (and we agree) are unsafe or stay off their bikes until it's all been fixed"

    Fair point

    I've got something of a Jekyll and Hyde with the PoP ride - saying the roads should be safer, while telling people the roads are perfectly safe if they say you're 'brave' to ride. Not sure I can resolve that particular split personality.

    p.s. can I point out one last time I'm not condemning, merely stating that if people do break the law they should expect they may get busted and if so can't really complain? I'll happily condemn the 'I got caught, it's so unfair' mentality (as well as the 'they do it so I'll do it' or 'I'm allowed to break the law but they're not' mentalities) - the action itself I can understand, even if personally, no matter if it was a bit more hassle to me, I wouldn't take that action. It's the reaction rather than the action if you like. As menioned upthread, I've had two speeding tickets in my driving life, and I didn't complain about it being a stealth tax or the like. I knew I was doing wrong, I paid. No-one's fault but my own.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  4. Min
    Member

    chdot "I know what you're saying, but I think some of the tram 'work' disproves that 'rule'!"

    I know the tr*mworks are a mess but which roads have been blocked off without any diversions for drivers?

    Insto "More generally, I'm wondering if we're willing to protest about the need for roads to be safer, maybe we should also be less condemnatory of people who use other, albeit illegal, infrastructure."

    You know, this has been my thought for a long time. I may disapprove of it (and it may be against the law) but in most cases I can't really blame people for doing it - unless they are acting like a thug of course.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  5. wingpig
    Member

    To swing briefly back past the thread title for a moment, it looks like the DO NOT CROSS unbroken white line between the bus-only section and the left-turn-lane gives up at the apex of the turn, so (as there are no "NO U-TURNS" signs) it could potentially be acceptable for bicycles and taxis to go along in the not-bus-only lane, turn left a bit but then turn right (in accordance with their exemption from the no-right-turns sign) and head east. Not sure if a left-turn-lane arrow is merely indicatory or if you can be shot and killed for going in any other direction other than that indicated by the arrow.


    IMAG0197 by wingpig, on Flickr

    In reference to that "people laugh about being ignorant of the Highway Code" thread from last week, there's an example of the "two-way traffic crossing one-way-street" sign at the end of the one-way northernmost section of Cutlins.

    As luck would have it, three seconds after I put my phone away and zipped up my pocket a car emerged from the west and went the wrong way up the one-way bus-only section.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  6. Roibeard
    Member

    That's a mess - buses only, but right turns permitted for buses, taxis and cycles...

    The exemption qualifies the arrow, I'd guess.

    I'd interpret that as acceptable for cyclists and taxis to turn right in the left hand lane, but clearly it would be safer to do so from the right hand lane!

    Robert

    Posted 12 years ago #
  7. Instography
    Member

    Sure, sorry, I meant a general condemnatory tone rather than you specifically. Less of a 'get thee behind me Satan' and more of a 'come on in me old mate and have a cup of tea'. Me, I think I'm leaning more towards advocating just riding where you feel safe. Essentially, say to the Government or the Council that if they want people to ride then people need to feel safe. If that's not roads then it'll need to be pavements until something is done. I would imagine the police will enforce with the same vigour they plan to use for the 20mph zones.

    And yeah, I agree, both in terms of speeding (twice also: same day, same journey) and my other infringements. No whinging.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  8. cb
    Member

    "I know the tr*mworks are a mess but which roads have been blocked off without any diversions for drivers?"

    I'd claim Russell Road as a rare example of where provision has been made for cyclists but not drivers (I don't think there are diversion signs in place for drivers).

    (although there is a related disadvantage to cyclists - the end of the cycle path being cut off)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  9. "Essentially, say to the Government or the Council that if they want people to ride then people need to feel safe. If that's not roads then it'll need to be pavements until something is done. I would imagine the police will enforce with the same vigour they plan to use for the 20mph zones"

    You know, I'm intrigued by this as a concept. And you're right, the police say they don't have the resources to enforce 20mph... What you really want to do is formulate that into an article for citycycling. No really. You do... ;)

    My speeding was similar - same trip, three days apart. Had all the excuses (marriage had just broken up, was driving south to stay with my sister for a couple of nights, then driving back north, not in a particular good mental state, only 10mph over both times on the motorway), never used any of them.

    Ah, CCE generally comes round to pleasantness in the end. Where's Nelly for a group hug? :P

    Posted 12 years ago #
  10. Min
    Member

    Can I join in the group hug too?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  11. Instography
    Member

    When would you need it?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  12. Next issue is online tonight, which would be a bit mean of me on timescale ;)

    Say, three weeks time?

    @min, the more the merrier!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  13. Smudge
    Member

    "When would you need it?"

    The hug or the article? ;-)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  14. Instography
    Member

    Perfect. But you might need to remind me.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  15. Dave
    Member

    I suppose to throw a fly in the ointment, the government has never suggested that people should just drink drive carefully (but did publically state that they intended that careful pavement cyclists should not be fined).

    Also, there's increasing talk of a red light jumping trial... again, highly dissimilar.

    Finally, the difference between riding on the pavement illegally and riding on a shared use path legally is as simple as a council tick on a form and possibly some signage that will soon fall into disrepair. When something is as arbitrary as that, the niceties will inevitably not be well observed.

    Motorists use the same argument ("the road felt like a 40mph, honest!") and tbh I think they have an equally valid point, in the sense that building a high speed "style" of road and then putting a low limit on it is asking for people to speed, and this is ultimately the problem with our urban road network (and the reason that the 20 zones are not well observed).

    Posted 12 years ago #
  16. SRD
    Moderator

    HUG. I definitely need a hug. and new sinuses and lungs. and someone to mark 15 dissertations before tomorrow. plus 30 essays. please?

    oh, and and referee 4 journal articles before meeting tomorrow afternoon. and send my journal to press before end of business tomorrow?

    or just a hug will do....

    Posted 12 years ago #
  17. What are the dissertations and essays about? :P

    Posted 12 years ago #
  18. SRD
    Moderator

    all sorts of fun stuff :)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  19. wee folding bike
    Member

    Instography,

    I haul kids in the trailer on the road every week. Cars are very careful round it and I've never had a negative reaction from them. Occasionally when I've used it to haul other stuff people have shouted to let me know I forgot the kids but always in a jocular fashion.

    I ignore the 10 mph max and 50 lb weight limit warning on the inside and it has been up to 30 mph downhill carrying a 7 and 8 year old with no shimmy.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  20. wee folding bike
    Member

    Oh… I crossed a solid white line in Glassford St this afternoon. I was almost across it anyway going past a line of busses then one of them pulled out to get round another bus which meant I had to cross the line to pass that one.

    The vehicle I passed was doing less than 12 mph so I think it's OK.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  21. Instography
    Member

    Sure, I know it can be done but the particular roads - the A985, major two-lane roads around Rosyth, Carnegie Drive and associated roads near Pitreavie Industrial Estate and the junctions with the A9 - are not pleasant at the best of times with many HGVs. And, to be honest, I think why should I? I know the worst that can happen on the roads and compared with the worst that can happen on the pavement, it's no contest. They're not even pavements that many people use.

    The 10mph limit isn't the trailer, it's me climbing Carnegie Drive. Sometimes I get so slow that my 'puter auto pauses. It's all downhill on the way back and we can easily reach 25mph.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  22. As mentioned above, if that's the solid white line marking a bus lane/cycle lane, then you're allowed to cross it.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  23. wee folding bike
    Member

    No, it was the line down the middle of the road but the other side of the road might be a bus lane. It's a long time since I've taken a car along there.

    Guardian bike blog has a map of road injuries/fatalities. They have it centred on London but you can drag/zoom anywhere in the UK. No bike fatalities in Airdrie but then I've not been hit by anyone.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/datablog/interactive/2012/apr/12/london-road-cyclist-pedestrian-casualties-map

    Posted 12 years ago #
  24. cb
    Member

    "The vehicle I passed was doing less than 12 mph so I think it's OK. "

    I thought it was 10 mph.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  25. Nelly
    Member

    @anth - 'Where's Nelly for a group hug? :P'

    Out for lunch with my wife and being told I cant keep looking at the phone 'just because there is an interesting debate on CCE'

    As it happens, she agrees with you re the lawbreaking bit, and after a bit of wine and debate, I got a hug of the non-group variety (if not any agreement) :-)

    p.s. I love these threads - 100+ in less than 24 hours, and no mention of helmets ;-)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  26. wee folding bike
    Member

    The bus was also doing less than 10 mph.

    Nelly, I was wearing a Tilley T3.

    I wanted to do a right turn on Clyde St which isn't allowed but… if you go left on the shared use cycle lane then turn round 180° it sort of is…

    Posted 12 years ago #
  27. Arellcat
    Moderator

    I've just been taking photographs at Edinburgh Park. Quite interesting that standing there with visible camera and tripod monopod seemed to make all westbound car drivers turn left to go up Bankhead Drive, while idly watching from the sidelines saw two cars, two cyclists and a Highways Agency tipper all ignore the No Entry signs. All in 15 minutes.

    One of the cyclists had come from the Broomhouse direction along the cycle path and was using the newly paved bit on the railway/tram side of the road, but then (had to) cut across using the new dropped kerb crossing because the path ends in Heras fencing. Strictly speaking the crossing would be legal because the Hermiston Gate side of the road has a shared use path.

    I also noted that eastbound on the connector road is clearly marked for buses, taxis and cyclists. So why have they restricted that section westbound to buses only?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  28. Roibeard
    Member

    @Arellcat - my money will be on "human error", grabbing the wrong sign from the warehouse, or thinking "it'll do, 'coz it has a bus on it"...

    Robert

    Posted 12 years ago #
  29. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Which raises the question: did Gembo's encounter result from L&BP enforcing the signs that are in place, or enforcing a specific traffic regulation order? If it's the latter, what was the basis for excluding cyclists on that short stretch of road?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  30. gembo
    Member

    @arellcat the police said that their motivation was to stop me from being mangled by a bus (specifically) on my second infringement which was the left up cutlins, the one four other cyclist took when I was in the back of the van. The no entry, buses only signs on Bankhead are recent as the cones have only recently been taken away that prevented any east west travel. It could be that buses are going to start using it more. If a bus going east mt another bus going west at the pinch point it would be tight. Interestingly, today going down cutlins the whole right lane was stowed with parked cars and a norbert dentrassle lorry, so no buses could fit in to it at all.

    The quick succession of infringements was also counted against me. My raising of the wider thrust of the campaign is my only major concern (as the police were kind enough to let me off with a warning). when I asked about ASLs the bad cop said " the cars are there for a reason" he didn't specify the reason but I guess they are the ones we then discussed on this thread ie they were stopping as lights changed, safer to enter the box etc. The debate on this thread has been interesting but my concern that the clampdown will result in a campaign against cyclists infringing the highway code but not focus on drivers RLJing etc is still my gut reaction as the cop I classed as bad cop ( for ease of reference, he was hardly Harvey keitel) had many of the joe public opinions about cyclists in my readingofnwhat he was saying (from his totally fair - you use the roads you follow the highway code like all drivers obviously do, to his admiration for my hi viz jacket). So if twomlessminformed cops are out together we are heading for some fines. still not sure when the fines will kick in?

    Posted 12 years ago #

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