CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!

Cyclepath etiquette

(63 posts)
  • Started 14 years ago by Greenroofer
  • Latest reply from chdot

123

  1. Greenroofer
    Member

    Still smarting from an experience on my way home this evening. I want to know if you think I did something wrong...

    So, I was trundling along the towpath near Meggetland this evening. It was busy with bikes, joggers and pedestrians (but not many dogs, for once). There was a cyclist coming towards me. He really was a cyclist, with a nice bike with dropped handlebars, lycra, shades etc and not a ned on a BSO. He might well be a reader of this forum. I was on the left of the path. He was heading straight for me. It was clear in front and behind. Rather than cycle round him on the 'wrong' side of the path, and rather than cause any confusion about who was going to go where, I stopped dead with him still coming straight towards me and me still on the left of the path. He was obviously a bit surprised by this, as if he expected me to ride around him on the wrong side of the path. He then rode onto the verge and passed to my left. As he passed I pointed to my right and said 'we normally ride on the left, you know', to which he replied 'duck off' (I think).

    I've always taken the view that the 'rules of the road' on the a cyclepath are the same as on the actual road. That is, you ride on the left, and if there's a stationary or slow-moving obstacle (usually a dog or pedestrian in this case) in front of you you wait behind it and give way to oncoming traffic. Am I right?

    I would have expected better of someone who looked like a proper cyclist. Am I being unreasonable? If it was you I passed, what were you expecting me to do?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  2. chdot
    Admin

    Bizarre - but sadly not unique.

    Can't understand why rider would go on grass if you were stationary and leaving them the rest of the path!

    I think that many people on paths gravitate to the right. Maybe it's natural. Maybe the UK drives on the left because the person who proposed the rules was left handed(???)

    I think it's entirely reasonable to assume that on offroad paths there is a 'presumption' that people will try to follow rules of the road.

    In practice given the behaviour (quite reasonable) of pedestrians, dogs, children (on or off bikes), cycling progress can be quite sinuous. This means that it is quite common to pass other cyclists on the 'wrong' side - by 'mutual understanding' of the instantaneous conditions.

    You seem to have encountered an extreme form of selfishness...

    Posted 14 years ago #

  3. wee folding bike
    Member

    Riding on the left keeps your sword arm towards oncoming traffic.

    Unless you're coury fisted.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  4. druidh
    Member

    The Swedes actually did some research into this a few years ago. It transpires that right-handed drivers would veer left at the sign of another vehicle coming towards them and vise-versa. Given that there are more right-handed than left-handed folk, they seriously considered changing their road system to left-hand, the same as the UK. They were only stopped because the cost would be enormous and disruption potentially damaging to their economy.

    Blame Napoleon!

    Posted 14 years ago #

  5. wee folding bike
    Member

    Sweden used to drive on the left until '67.

    Rumour (in the university engineering dept) says that the urban sections of the M8 have ramps on both sides because at the time of design the UK was considering changing too. i wish they hadn't built it like that.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  6. LaidBack
    Member

    That is not so good. I tend to keep to left in advance of potential head to heads.

    Anyone with normal cycling skills would 'read' this and move appropriately.

    Exceptions are when dogs and children are 'in the mix'. Then the objective is simply to avoid them by biggest margin possible.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  7. SRD
    Moderator

    Cyclists on the north meadows path often pass me on the 'wrong' side. I think people get confused with the divided path, and the 'one-way effect'. (a bit like when you turn out of a one-way street and it can take a minute to re-assure yourself that you're on the right side). Coming to a stop is certainly sometimes the safest thing to do.

    It took me a while to get the hang of cycling on paths here and remembering to keep left (have never driven here).

    On the canal, I suppose there is also a tendency to hug the verge if you're at all fearful of the water? maybe your guy had bad hydrophobia?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  8. Smudge
    Member

    @Greenroofer, for what it's worth, imho you're right, he's an a**e.
    Worry not and keep on doing what you're doing and enjoying the rest of the ride :)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  9. cb
    Member

    "Rumour (in the university engineering dept) says that the urban sections of the M8 have ramps on both sides because at the time of design the UK was considering changing too"

    Surely that doesn't make sense as the offside slips would be just as 'wrong' if we drove on the right.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  10. wee folding bike
    Member

    It was a civil engineering student who told me about it so he may have been drunk. Perhaps they just used it as an excuse.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  11. spytfyre
    Member

    M8 has ramps on both sides so you can join and exit in every direction surely?

    fighting courie fisted actually works a treat as I have discovered while sword fighting a left hander, also the vikings used this trick in battle to confuse the enemy

    Greenroofer - yep, definately a case of "I am a proper cyclist me look at all my cycling attire and bow down before me"...

    In other similar news we went a trip out to Ratho EICC today and stopped at Ratho bridge for a nice picnic, while there a couple and their kid on a scooter stopped a cyclist and I overheard "did you not see the red light on the bridge?" from the gent, so it seems the cyclist ignored the red and the crossing being green...
    I didn't hear the cyclists reply but the gent went on "I'm not being funny you know just you could've hit the wee one" (or something along those lines)
    to which the arsehole on the bike responded:
    "Well you should keep a hold of him then"... and cycled off
    I could've happily pushed the fud into the canal (or lobbed a stick at his spokes) for giving the rest of us decent cyclists a bad name... but I restrained myself as I had my family present ;)
    So when we passed the family a little way along the canal after finishing lunch (from behind with a polite ding of the bell) I thanked them very firmly for stepping to the side.
    Honestly, what a fud...

    Posted 14 years ago #

  12. gembo
    Member

    if the 'fud' continues jumping the red light at Ratho Bridge he will eventually get hit by a car, there will be a 'thud'.

    p.s. where I am from the nomenclature is coming close to infringing condition two but I have found that if I slip in regional swear words they sometimes get in through the sweeper. there was a man at Dalmilling Golf Course in Ayr (school of hard knocks) who was called Fud - his name might have been McFadyen. This used to trouble me and then I forgot about it for 30 years and now it has come back to me.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  13. wee folding bike
    Member

    The only personal number plate which ever made me laugh was on something spendy like a Mercedes or a Lexus in Airdrie a few years ago and it was Y4 FUD.

    That was the name given to the McFadyen character in Tutti Frutti (Jake D'Arcy).

    The memsahib took a call from "Your Favourite bike shop" today. That's how the fabulous Mr Gow introduces himself on the phone. My wheel is ready and I have an excuse to get away from the gardening and ride out to Campsie glen later in the week.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  14. chdot
    Admin

    http://www.heraldscotland.com:80/comment/joanna-blythman/pedestrians-let-s-break-these-cyclists-of-violence-1.1019727

    Posted 14 years ago #

  15. SRD
    Moderator

    Was just reading this, having also just come back from attempted walk on towpath with 2 - pretty well behaved and sensible - 3 year olds and 2 other adults. Kept feeling like I had to apologize for the cyclists....

    Anyway, she doesn't say much new, but some good points. Interesting she says that pedestrians have priority. Maybe some signs to that effect would encourage the cyclists to take it easy. The ones coming from the canal; basin were fine, it was the ones coming in from less congested areas who clearly didn't want to adjust to the crowds who were a real pain.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  16. Kim
    Member

    She does flag up that there is a real problem. There are a number of cyclist out there who behave very badly, they behave the way they would if they were driving. OK so part of the problem is over crowding, particularly on the canal tow path, as people feel forced to use off road routes. However, there is also the issue of cycling be seen as primarily as a sport, so speed become more important, and this leads to rude and aggressive behaviour.

    How do we (as in society as a whole) solve this problem? Make the roads more cycle friendly to relieve pressure on the off roads routes? Less aggressive and more friendly Dutch style bikes? Better education and training?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  17. Greenroofer
    Member

    It's good to know I'm not alone in thinking the chap who started all this was a bit out of order. However, now I'm wishing I'd never mentioned it, because of all the new things I've found out...

    I thought the speed limit sign at Meggetland was for the boats, and I must confess that on dog- and pedestrian-free days my speed past that sign has sometimes been more than 6mph.

    I didn't know I needed a permit to cycle on the towpath. I've now got one. It's very interesting. It says that I must (and I quote):

    • 'Give way to others at all times' (presumably we'll know when everyone's got a permit, because everyone will give way to everyone else at all times, and nothing will actually move)
    • 'Only cycle in daylight' That new Li-Ion light was a waste of money then

    The latest list of where you can ride on towpaths says that the towpath from Lochrin Basin to Dumbryden Pipes (5.2km) is 'only 1.5m wide, uneven and potholed surface. Dismount at all road crossings and bridges. Path crosses Slateford Aqueduct, dismount whilst crossing aqueduct.' It says that the next bit is a 'Piped section of canal no tow path available for cycling.'. This confused me for a bit, but then I realised it's that bit of canal I cycle along every day through Wester Hailes. If I'm reading it right, the British Waterways list of where you can cycle on the Union Canal was last updated in 2002 (eight years ago), and doesn't take account of the bits reopened for the millenium project.

    I wonder if I'll be the only person I pass tomorrow on my way to work who actually has a permit to cycle there? Will I have to get off in Wester Hailes because that bit of canal doesn't officially exist?

    I wish I'd never found any of this out!

    Posted 14 years ago #

  18. chdot
    Admin

    "I didn't know I needed a permit to cycle on the towpath. I've now got one. It's very interesting."

    Where from???

    They gave up permits in Scotland a few years ago.

    http://cyclingedinburgh.info/2006/09/13/permits-no-longer-required-for-scottish-canals

    Wasn't aware they had changed back.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  19. Min
    Member

    The 6mph limit is for boats. How can you ride at 6mph on a bike??

    Posted 14 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    "The 6mph limit is for boats."

    I suspect not - they are supposed to stick to 4mph.

    "How can you ride at 6mph on a bike??"

    With boredom.

    Such notions (the signs) make it worse.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  21. chdot
    Admin

    MAYBE EDINBURGH NEEDS ITS OWN VERSION(?)

    "London's Towpath Code of Conduct

    Towpath Code of Conduct for all users

    Pedestrians have priority over cyclists on the towpath.
    Considerate cycling permitted providing this code of conduct is followed.

    Give way to oncoming users at bridges

    Some bridges have poor visibility so check (using the mirrors if available) that someone isn’t already coming through.

    Cyclists should slow down, ring with Two Tings and let other users through the bridge before continuing. Never pass a pedestrian or another cyclist underneath a bridge - there is not room to do so safely.

    Pedestrians should listen out for the Two Tings warning from cyclists.
    Please note cyclists no longer have to dismount to go under a bridge.
    Be extra careful at bends and entrances

    Cyclists, be prepared to slow down, stop, or dismount if necessary.
    Consider other users and the local environment
    The waterways and towpaths have many historic structures and important wildlife habitats for people to enjoy.

    Code of Conduct for Cyclists

    Ring with Two Tings

    Use a bell, giving Two Tings when approaching pedestrians. Ringing with Two Tings is not an order to pedestrians to get out of your way.
    Be aware that some pedestrians may have visual or hearing impairments and might not hear your Two Tings.

    Pass people slowly. Give people space

    Slow down when approaching pedestrians and only pass when it is safe to do so. Extra care should be taken when passing children, less able people and animals.

    Try to pass on the water side of the path. Pedestrians will tend to move to the back edge of the towpath to allow you to pass.

    Be patient and courteous to pedestrians. Saying “thank you” to pedestrians who move to let you pass will make them more likely to move next time.

    Ride at a sensible speed

    The towpath is never suitable for cycling fast as there are many other users, low bridges and narrow sections. If you are in a hurry, use an alternative route.

    Code of Conduct for Pedestrians

    Listen for Two Tings

    Two Tings is not an order for you to move out of the way. It is to make you aware that cyclists are looking for a safe opportunity to pass. We advise you not to use headphones at peak times so you can hear a cyclist’s Two Tings.

    Allow cyclists to pass

    Allow cyclists to pass you when it is safe. Remember that cyclists need room to brake and stop. If a cyclist stops or waits for you to pass, thank them and they will be more likely to stop next time.
    "

    http://www.waterscape.com/canals-and-rivers/regents-canal/londons-towpath-code-of-conduct

    Posted 14 years ago #

  22. Smudge
    Member

    http://www.waterscape.com/things-to-do/cycling/permit

    Found it... doesn't list designated paths though, I guess that it's up to me to find them!

    Why do pointless exercises like this make me want to organise an after dark race for a group of riders?!? (not that I'm going to, even though the temptation is there!)

    Oooh just found this:
    http://www.waterscape.com/canals-and-rivers/union-canal/cycling

    Looks like I'm supposed to be doing a lot of dismounting?!? I think it is summed up by one of their closing lines, "Do not speed, speed causes accidents" Now do not speed, I have no problem with, but I always thought it was inappropriate speed which contributed to the likelihood accidents...

    ho hum...

    Posted 14 years ago #

  23. Min
    Member

    Are you sure about the speed limit signs? How many people have computers on their bike anyway to be able to tell how fast they are going? I know that 6mph is borderline staying upright.

    I think the major problem is that cyclists are at the bottom of the pile at all times and it probably makes some people angry.

    If you ride on the road you are expected to get the **** out of the way of motorists and you really need to ride fast and aggressively to make any sort of safe progress.

    Then when you get on to the cycle path you are suddenly expected to ride no faster than a 90 year old with a zimmer and give way to everyone at all times.

    It is not surprising there is conflict really.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  24. Dave
    Member

    The few times I've walked on the towpath, I found the cyclists intensely irritating - and when I've cycled on it, vice-versa.

    The problem with the article linked above, for example, is that it simply takes a pedestrian-centric view (the same author, if she became a cyclist would be writing the exact same article from the 'other side').

    I always think trying to enforce slow speed limits on cyclists is a pointless exercise. I sometimes take my GPS when I jog into work, and the max speed regularly reads up over 10mph. Does anyone seriously expect cyclists to travel so slowly they are being overtaken by joggers?

    Ultimately the problem comes down to a mode of use conflict. Cyclists are generally on the towpath because it forms the most direct route to a destination. When they meet people who want to walk half a dozen dogs off the lead, naturally neither party will have much in common...

    Posted 14 years ago #

  25. SRD
    Moderator

    I'm pretty sure the 6 mph is for boats, but will try to find something to confirm that!

    Posted 14 years ago #

  26. Smudge
    Member

    I must be strange or lucky, I've had no dramas with pedestrians on the canal/old railway for a long time. :)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  27. chdot
    Admin

    "I must be strange or lucky"

    Perhaps both(?)

    What is your 'bell strategy'?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  28. Smudge
    Member

    :) Perhaps both indeed, bell strategy? One or two tings at a good distance if I think they haven't seen me/ are dreaming, slow down and move over whenever suitable, always try to say "morning" / "thanks" and say hello to the dogs as well ;-)
    Also multiple bell tings before blind corner/bridges.

    Essentially relax and be nice and enjoy the ride/scenery, any time I lose will be a few seconds, even if it's a minute or so, so what? What's a minute...? (a. not long enough to be important)

    Posted 14 years ago #

  29. SRD
    Moderator

    Yesterday one guy with a black mask on charged at us shouting something entirely indecipherable (possibly 'out of the way!'?), but very aggressive tone. Quite scary really, and we were all to one side of the path already.

    Female cyclist moving at more sedate pace behind him saw us stop and look back at him, and said something like 'he's been pinging everyone'. As I said to her, pinging's just polite, but shouting like that was unnecessary.

    I bet he got a shock - he was about to go under the Shandon terrace bridge and hit hordes of people, kids on little bikes, at least two wheelchairs, etc

    Posted 14 years ago #

  30. Gresham Flyer
    Member

    I was jogging on the towpath at the weekend and took the 6mph sign as a challenge.

    Posted 14 years ago #

RSS feed for this topic

123

Reply »

You must log in to post.


Video embedded using Easy Video Embed plugin