"yes its not allowed,however they don't hinder traffic"
Generally issues is about safety for cyclists.
Never been sure if this a cycle campaigners' over-reaction or relates to experience where there are a lot more motorbikes.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh
"New bus lane cameras ‘causing road chaos’ "
(198 posts)-
Posted 12 years ago #
-
The recent study in London showed that there was no significant decrease in safety* and as a result motorcyclists are now allowed to use the bus lanes, or at least some of them.
*well, except for cyclists of course but they don't count.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Generally I find PTW'ers to be pretty bad, but not so much because they can go in bus lanes - the problem is more dodgy filtering (particularly trying to filter past me when I'm filtering myself) and especially jumping the lights into the ASL and then blatting through the loose group of cyclists in it within 0.2s of them going green.
I did almost put my D-lock through a MTB visor one day when I indicated right with it - single lane and I was in the middle of it, just behind a car, and he was trying to nip up the outside through the junction I wanted to turn right at. That would have been embarrasing!
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
Brian Ferguson (@brianjaffa)
22/05/2012 23:53
In tomorrow's @scotsmanpaper - how #edincouncil is set to waive thousands of fines for driving in bus lanes after bungling enforcement.
"
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
Brian Ferguson (@brianjaffa)
22/05/2012 23:58
In short, 2 of 5 bus lane camera sites used have been scrapped, 5 new ones are on hold and multiple fines set to be scratched. #edincouncil
"
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
However most of these will now have to be scrapped after the council admitted it had failed to provide enough warning on affected routes and was not ticketing people quickly enough.Two of the five camera sites used to date, on Willowbrae Road, are also to be scrapped completely after the council admitted it was a mistake for them to be site there. Many residents were being fined for driving to and from their homes.
.............
Other routes put on hold at the moment are Leith Street, North Bridge and Old Dalkeith Road. They are now unlikely to go live until their locations have been fully reviewed and much larger signs are in place.
"
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
It is thought well over 10,000 fines have been issued in the four weeks since the council - which was given the power by the Scottish Government to take over responsibility for enforcing bus lanes from the police - started its clampdown.Only 4000 fines a year had been predicted from the scheme which is said to cost the council £120,000 to administer.
One council source said: “There are numerous problems to try to resolve, but the sheer volume of motorists using these lanes is the main one.
"Posted 12 years ago # -
I noticed people driving up the bus lane on Leith St again as I commented earlier. Very disappointing.
How big do the signs need to be when THE ENTIRE ROAD IS GREEN AND HAS A HUGE WHITE LINE on it?
Definite councillor rage coming on.
Posted 12 years ago # -
The council backed down? Sickening. :-(
Posted 12 years ago # -
Saw the first one of these yesterday -
I think the ASL campaign has worked (not saying everyone is abiding by the law).
Posted 12 years ago # -
Backing down? Depends what they do next. Sometimes it's tactically sensible to back away, rethink and come back to do the same as you did before only this time be a bit better organised about it. They need to accept that they blew it and if they don't withdraw and reorganise it they'll never get acceptance of it.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Backing down? Depends what they do next."
Apart from the rights and wrongs of the drivers and the quality/implementation of the enforcement scheme, the simple fact is that CEC can't cope with the massively underestimated number of people caught.
This is clearly a logistics problem.
Assuming all cases were correctly dealt with and there would be no appeals (not just successful ones) should CEC hire more staff on the basis that a) drivers will always be stupid/illegal b) most drivers will learn pretty fast and not many tickets will be issued in future.
CEC (under Lesley Hinds) has reiterated commitment to enforce bans on driving in bus lanes.
Presumably camera sites were selected for good reasons(?)
One sensible reason would be places where buses are held up. I would be a bit surprised if too much thought had gone into the effect of driving in bus lanes on cyclists.
One real problem is Leith Street - not just driving in the bus lane, also the entrance to Calton Road lane markings and the fact that vehicles allowed to turn left into Waterloo Place.
Perhaps these can be raised with Ms. Hinds too.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@Chdot - nice bus pic. i would like a BIG one of these and/or the no RLJ one, on the hoardings across the front of the Kings.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Instography "Backing down? Depends what they do next."
Yes you are right. It looks like they are still keen to continue with them, they will just have to figure out a way to cope with all the huge numbers of fines they will have to give out.
And change all the bus lanes to 24hrs. :-)Posted 12 years ago # -
Le sigh indeed.
Evening Chipwrapper must be really pleased with themselves.
Posted 12 years ago # -
If I may add my humble opinion:
I was cycling my two sons from New Town to Cameron Toll on a regular basis with a bike trailer. Unfortunately that was recently stolen. (Please note: If you see a yellow/blue Burley Cub trailer call the police.) So I have to use a car to bring my boys to and from nursery. (I am sure that I am one of the few who actually does that since there are very few trailers. So most people would use a car.)
Anyway, driving through Edinburgh with a car:
The misery one is subjected to is unbelievable. I don't know how many people on this forum have ever sat behind a steering wheel. But if you have to turn left and the left lane is also a bus lane and you get fined for actually obeying the rules then what is the point?
Truth is that most lanes in Edinburgh suddenly end in a bus lane or start out as one. So drivers are forced to switch into a bus lane. People got fined for not turning left directly from the middle lane (taking a few unsuspecting cyclist with them on the way). The lane layout in Edinburgh practically assumes that one will go into a bus lane since else there is grid lock on any traffic light with a possible right turn. So this camera system is stupid and dangerous because it makes the whole traffic flow more disrupted than it is anyway.
Also: Car drivers pay road tax. They actually have a right to use the road. I dislike buses when I am driving a car or riding a cycle. They are annoying, clog up cycle and car traffic, destroy the road surface prematurely and probably don't even pay for the privilege. So the whole fuss about bus lanes is rubbish. I would scrap all of them together with the buses and get a proper tram system that works (please note: I come from a country where we do not need a decade and £1,000,000,000 to build one single tram line).
Last but not least: People don't drive through Edinburgh for fun but because they have to. They have to deliver food to your supermarket, have to drop children to nursery, or go to work as a GP (who by the way have to have a car because they need to do home visits). So I think the city council should make life easier for people not harder than it is anyway. How about opening up Hanover Street + The Mount again for bicycles and cars. Or actually giving fines to all the people who jay-walk which would make Edinburgh a very prosperous city indeed. Rules are not just for car drivers and cyclists but for pedestrians as well.
End of rant.Posted 12 years ago # -
Where to start. There is no jay-walking here. People can cross the street anywhere they like.
You seem to be suggesting that every car journey is essential. Nonsense. Almost a quarter of journeys of under one mile are made by car. Unless you're carrying some preposterous load, that can be walked or cycled. Nearly two-thirds of journeys under 5 miles are made by car and most could easily be cycled. Sure, some of those journeys will need a car but even doctors could make home visits by bike if they wanted to.
Car drivers do not pay road tax. No one does. They don't pay to use the road. They pay for emissions.
The markings and rules for the Greenways are pretty clear and it is perfectly possible to turn from the car lane into a side street without driving in the bus lane. And, if the car lane is clogged up with cars, wait. No one is forced to drive in the bus lane. People do it because they don't want to wait.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@element_82 was about to offer you loan of my trailer (just a secondhand ebc one) but honestly by the end of your rant I am so annoyed i don't know what to do.
where to start:
1. yes people 'have' to drive, but they could drive fairly and considerately? I 'm less convinced that GPs etc 'need' cars for home visits. last winter I had a baby in the middle of ice and snow and midwives did series of home visits by foot and bus and agreed they could never have managed it by car.
at a lot of intersections, the reason there is gridlock is because of all the stupid parking (for people who 'need' cars), and because people speed up, and then have to brake, and lots of other reasons. not because of bus lanes.
From the New Town to Cameron Toll I would take the bus, even if I had a car. And then life would be easier for everyone.
Oh yeah,. and winston churchill abolished road tax. we all pay for roads, but my bike does a heck of lot less damage to the surface than cars and buses do.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I don't know how many people on this forum have ever sat behind a steering wheel.
Nor do I, overall, but just in this thread I know for nae-kiddin sure that recombodna does, since I met him offline first when he was driving his van. Of the rest I know from reading posts or offline conversation that Stepdoh, spytfyre, Dave, Instography, crowriver, steveo, Min, gembo and anth have all driven in Edinburgh recently. Well, maybe not recently in Min and crow's case; if my memory serves, then you hire cars if and when needed. And if it does serve, then why can I remember a detail that is of no practical use to me, but still forget to check if I have my keys, wallet and phone before leaving the house?
Wouldn't bet the house on Morningsider, Greenroofer and wingpig, but I'd definitely risk the price of dinner; got that kinda-sure feeling I've read a post from them about driving.
Kaputnik, SRD and myself are to the best of my knowledge still virginal in the field of Edinburgh driving.
The rest: I am afraid I can't remember.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Mr SRd hails from the Motor City and has been known to rent a car. I navigate.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I haven't driven a car in Edinburgh for a year and a half now. I've never rented a car or used the City Car Club. I can't say I particularly enjoy riding my motorbike in Edinburgh either because of the lack of filtering room that invariably ends in a bus lane or an ASL box. I look at that massive green lane beside me and wish I was cycling!
Posted 12 years ago # -
I drive quite a lot in the city. Probably more than most on this forum. Personally I love driving (just not in the city), and love my (sporty) car (with a desire for a classic one of these days). I could, legitimately, be described as a petrol head. Plus, as posted upthread, my father in law lives on Willowbrae Avenue, and just last weekend used the entry to that street that people were complaining about having to make a 'hard left' to enter.
As others have mentioned 'road tax' doesn't exist, hasn't since the 30s, abolished because it was believed that it might make drivers think they had more right to be on the roads, and that was seen as a bad thing (if bikes were subject to this tax they'd be zero-rated on emissions and so the DVLA costs would be doubled without any additional revenue).
Ad you most certainly don't get fined for obeying the rules - exactly the opposite. You don't get fined for 'clipping' a lane either. I'd be willing to bet a huge amount of money that not a single fine-photo shows someone just clipping a lane.
Fining 'jay walking' and opening up the city to cars all over leads to 'prosperity'? I'd have my doubts about that (I'd be interested to know which countr you come from as a comparison if you'd be so inclined?).
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Jaywalking"? No such "offence"; ergo, no fines.
(Me?: variously cyclist, pedestrian, bus passenger, car driver, car passenger, taxi passenger. I don't particularly enjoy driving in town - and consequently tend to choose not to).
Posted 12 years ago # -
A remarkable show of solidarity for common sense in the comments.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Hmm I reckon element-82 needs to check-out gumtree or freecycle for a replacement trailer, although the cost in motoring would probably offset against the new one pretty quickly.
I consider cars like guns, they are pieces of machinery that can kill and injure far to easily if used wrongly. So to use a car on the road you need to receive training and hold a licence - just like a gun. Just like guns there is a system for using the equipment and one for owning it. In Scotland we do have the glory of a legal opinion that cycling is actually mechanically assisted pedestrian locomotion (Lord MacKay 1931).
Quite interesting comment on the need to deliver things - at 7 Dials in London the area was totally closed to motor vehicles for a day - everything was delivered by cycle, and in London Gnewt deliver around 3000 drops per day for one office supplier alone by cargo bike.
Posted 12 years ago # -
in Edinburgh should be deterring and not issuing penalties, so in a perfect world there should be zero offences.
“Clearly that will never happen, but the authority has to determine if the people being caught are wilful evaders.
“But if I, as a southerner, drive up to Edinburgh and make a simple mistake, because I’m not familiar with the area, should I be penalised? We’d like the authority to check who is committing the offences and use this to make the scheme work better.”
yes I like when I go to another city, that I am exempt from the rules and laws.......
“The authority needs to look at why 650 drivers per week are still going into bus lanes. It seems unlikely it’s deliberate because a substantial fine would put you off, so is there still some confusion over times and signage?
so they accidently go into the big green lane, that everyone else isnt in?
Posted 12 years ago # -
custard does have a point. Of course no drivers should be exempt from the law - so many are in Edinburgh and that causes big problems for people on bicycles, as discussed on the QBC thread - but equally the roads should be designed in such a way as to guide everyone into the correct behaviour. This is the Dutch design principle of sustainable safety. If a road guides drivers into doing the wrong thing, the road needs to be redesigned.
Off the top of my head, couldn't the bus lanes be separated physically from the other-motor-vehicles lanes? With physically separated & protected cycle paths too, naturally.
Tulyar, I love the cars/guns parallel. I'll remember that.
Posted 12 years ago # -
This is such nonsense. The bus lanes are signed properly, and if drivers (I drive too) cant work it out, then tough. Its a bit like the whinging about the average speed cameras in Fife, over FRB - minimal effect on journey times, arguably help the flow - but people still whinge.
I use a car once a week on average, dislike driving at rush hour, but find it odd that years of roadworks in city centre still see so many driving through it.
Despite tramworks, edinburghs bus service is brilliant, and if i couldnt ride to work - that would be my mode - no question.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Bus lanes are if designed and positioned correctly be a positive aid to bus speeds, as a family we use in varying proportions car, bike and bus to get around. I can't and won't comment on the number of drivers caught by the cameras as Iam not party to the evidence. That said, one issue that does need thought about is how vehicles turn left into a side street, across a bus lane.
To do this manoeuvre in a vehicle, without entering the bus lane you would indicate, slow down, then if clear turn sharp left across the inside lane into the side street.
Questions/risks arising would be;
>You would need to slow down the outside lane
>You would need to ensure inside lane is clear, if not you may have to stop the outside lane until inside lane is clear.Consequently consider IMHO that that the safest approach is to indicate, slow down, if clear move into bus lane, continue indicating and then turn left into side street. This approach gives more time and provides a clearer indication to other road users.
Appreciate that this may jar with others on this forum, indeed it may be the rules and markings are not as clear as they should be.
Posted 12 years ago #
Reply »
You must log in to post.
posts
