CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Commuting

One of the 57%

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  1. "
    ...this strange belief amongst some drivers (who drive dangerously around me then when I complain tell me that the reason they are doing it is because all cyclists run red lights and ride in the middle of the road (which I have been told)) that they can drive dangerously around me...
    "

    It's a little more long-winded. But seriously, did you honestly think I was suggesting that every single driver I ever come across in every ride on every day drives dangerously around me? I'd have to have some srerious paranoia issues for that to be the case, but just in case, no, not every single driver in the world is out to get me, and the drivers who think they can drive dangerously around me because there are other cyclists out there who do stupid things are, more specifically, the drivers who drive dangerously around me because there are cyclists who do stupid things, and not all drivers.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. Baldcyclist
    Member

    I am in the 'as a group we have a problem that we need to sort' camp.
    That doesn't however mean that I feel I need to take responsibility for others actions, but I do take some responsibility in trying to change the actions of others.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  3. But does it mean you're not allowed to complain about the actions of (some etc etc etc.) drivers?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  4. Just in case there's any dubiety on where I stand here, I do think that cycling has a problem with people doing the wrong thing; and I do think that these actions should be stopped (such as has been written, by me, on red light jumping); but I don't think that precludes me from complaining about the actions of other road users when that puts me, or others, at risk.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  5. Min
    Member

    It is ridiculous, except that the hypocrite in me would love to see the "get our own house in order" rule applied to motorists.

    No new roads, bridges, roundabouts, motorways, dual carriageways or car parks until every single last one of you obeys the speed limit, gets out of operational bus lanes, stops using your mobile phone while driving, stops jumping red lights, stops drink driving. The list is endless. Oh and no complaining about pedestrians or cyclists who are free to do what they want until you all behave because you have to "get your own house in order first".

    It would be brilliant!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  6. Instography
    Member

    I'll watch the video later but assuming that it shows lots of cyclists going through a red light, I'll just say that that has nothing to do with my argument about IAM. I wasn't making an argument that cyclists never go through red lights or that it's OK for cyclists to go through red lights. My argument was that IAM had distorted their data and misrepresented the prevalence of cyclists going through red lights.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  7. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Surely if we are going to lobby, campaign, and demand as a group, then we should be prepared to take responsibility for our actions, as a group too?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  8. "... we should be prepared to take responsibility for our actions, as a group too..."

    ... is different from...

    "That doesn't however mean that I feel I need to take responsibility for others actions, but I do take some responsibility in trying to change the actions of others"

    Which actually means we're in agreement (the second statement). As my article on red lights makes clear, I do take on some of the latter responsibility, while not feeling the need to take the first responsibility.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  9. Instography
    Member

    What does it mean to 'take responsibility'? How could we take responsibility? There's no reason why cyclists, or groups of cyclists, can't have a reasonable expectation (which is what it is, not a demand) that cycling should be safe without also becoming the roving policemen of other cyclists. It's not an argument I've ever seen directed at the AA or the motoring lobby.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    "Surely if we are going to lobby, campaign, and demand as a group, then we should be prepared to take responsibility for our actions, as a group too?"

    It's not that simple.

    Lobbying/campaigning/demanding as individuals, groups or ad-hoc groupings doesn't depend on a pre-agreed set of rules/bargaining points - 'you do this for us and we'll agree not to do x'. Far less to attempt any sort of 'agreement in advance'.

    As CCE shows, there is a broad - but not universal - agreement that 'we' (as individuals) should abide by laws. That's not the same as taking responsibility for those who don't - apologetically or 'agreeing' to try to change their behaviour.

    And that's not just because there is no expectation that 'motorists' will try to address the behaviour of fellow 'transgressors'.

    One real problem that people on bikes have is that some drivers are unwilling to concede that, in many cases, bike riders are being legal, following the highway code etc. and have the right to do much of what they are doing - cycling on the left of traffic, dodging potholes etc.

    If some people choose to ignore any of this, or (in their minds) 'overcompensate' by stopping/starting over the white line etc. that's not my problem.

    I'm happy to campaign for things to be 'better' (undefined) so that fewer people feel less 'forced' to do things they may or may not think are 'wrong'.

    If people get fined equally (as law breakers, not numerically) for ASL/Z offences I won't complain.

    I don't mind if people get fined for riding on pavements where legally, and reasonably, pedestrians have the right to a bit of 'peace'.

    I DO mind when people suggest that cyclists all/always cycle on the pavement. I'm NOT even blaming the minority who do for that. There is a strange culture of blaming a minority and ignoring the (often worse) actions of a large number - speeding, motorised mobile using, overtaking and hooking etc.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  11. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Take responsibility = provide education, try to amend behaviour.

    Why should we build a 'youf' club when no-one uses it, and they are more interested in drinking in the park outside?

    or

    Why should we build 'separate cycling facilities' when none of them will use it, and they are more interested in weaving through traffic and jumping red lights?

    You can argue in either case that the poor behaviour is nothing to do with me, and it's up to the Government/Police/anyone else but me to sort it, I wan't my club/path!

    Or you can get involved, and try in your limited capacity as an individual or group to try and modify the bad behaviour, and in the process hopefully increase the odds (even slightly) of getting what you want in the first place.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  12. Min
    Member

    You (they?) could try wondering why they aren't using it? In the case of cycle so-called facilities it is because they are almost universally crap and put us in even more danger than before. At best they are merely inconvenient. Most of us here are already "getting involved" through the medium of campaigning for decent facilities that are actually useful and not just a bit of the pavement painted off to get us out of drivers way peppered with lots of "cyclists dismount" signs.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Or you can get involved, and try in your limited capacity as an individual or group to try and modify the bad behaviour, and in the process hopefully increase the odds (even slightly) of getting what you want in the first place.

    "

    That's different from 'washing our hands' or 'condoning'.

    There are people on here who have ridden through red lights (that only change when they detect a car) in the middle of the night - I'm not going to tut tut at them for that.

    If I'm walking on a pavement (happens occasionally) and someone cycles towards me (has happened), I'm not going to do a citizen's arrest but I'm not going to meekly move aside either.

    I think 'we' on CCE - in small, individual, jointly, severally, ways - do some of the things in the first paragraph.

    As do many more who have never heard of CCE.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  14. "Or you can get involved, and try in your limited capacity as an individual or group to try and modify the bad behaviour, and in the process hopefully increase the odds (even slightly) of getting what you want in the first place"

    As chdot pointed out upthread, sometimes what you want in the first place is what will then stop the bad behaviour, so it's difficult to stop it happening before having the proper facilities in place. Nowt in black and white in this (and the goalposts have moved on the definition of responsibility).

    Is this responsibility only limited to cycling? Or to every campaigning group? By your rationale above (which isn't a bad analogy) the youth club can only get built when you've stopped the youths drinking (so they only get the thing that might stop them drinking after you've got them to stop drinking without it; cyclists can only get the things that might stop them indulging in bad behaviour after they've stopped indulging in bad behaviour without it).

    And we are, here, pandering to a generally perceived view of how cyclists act (yes, it does happen, but we know Joe Public's perception is even greater). Do gay rights protesters only get equal rights to marriage and so on when they've stamped out the abuse of young boys? Is this last analogy really any different? Some cyclists/gay men indulge in bad activities; a vocal minority of Joe Public think it's a majority; Cyclists/gay men wants changes that make their lives easier/safer.

    We're not just kicking here at the bad behaviour, but way beyond that into public perception. I can guarantee if we stopped every single cyclist running a red light it would take years for the 'all cyclists run red lights' shout to become a murmur, but instead they'd just complain about pavement riding or not wearing helmets (how on earth do we address that one???) or not paying road tax (ditto). So many of the things that cyclists do wrong in the public eyes are not actually illegal, but would still go towards a 'get your house in order' mentality before 'we' can get 'our' cycle lanes.

    I'm rambling. Some of that may make sense.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    "Some of that may make sense"

    Yeah, and I've forgotten what we are not agreeing about.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  16. Morningsider
    Member

    I'm convinced the best (possibly only) thing we can do is lead by example. Stop at red, indicate etc. The more cyclists that do this, the more likely it is seen as the norm and then taken up by even more cyclists. Honestly, if someone is already cycling through a red light - something they know is anti-social, illegal and could (technically) land them a fine - then a mild talking to by a fellow cyclist is unlikely to act as a deterant.

    I can't see the link bewteen cyclist behaviour and the provision of cycle facilities myself.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  17. Dave
    Member

    I personally think that the 'get your own house in order first' argument does pander to this strange belief amongst drivers that they can drive dangerously around me because other cyclists flout the rules of the road.

    \o/

    Posted 12 years ago #
  18. gembo
    Member

    Have the polis started fining people for RLJING yet? Has worked for the bus lanes

    Posted 12 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    "Have the polis started fining people for RLJING yet?"

    Probably (well I think they are supposed to be by now.

    "Has worked for the bus lanes"

    That's not actually the police.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  20. Dave
    Member

    A lot of people yesterday were driving past the camera in the bus lane on Leith St. There was no camera though - just the mast. Same at Cameron Toll. Have they pulled them after all the outcry from drivers who're used to using the bus lanes?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  21. Roibeard
    Member

    I think there are fewer cameras than sites, and these are rotated round as necessary - cf other safety cameras.

    Robert

    Posted 12 years ago #
  22. Rabid Hamster
    Member

    Currently 5 cameras rotating round 10 sites!

    See up thread as Morningsider says... the best (possibly only) thing we can do is lead by example. Stop at red, indicate etc. The more cyclists that do this, the more likely it is seen as the norm .

    As I'm 'low' down the cycling food chain, I see a lot of the incursions and misdemeanours cyclists do, and some are amazingly living on the edge of extinction! Darwin's Theory comes to mind now. Many drivers see this and do use the mantra that defines cyclists as a self-deleting species! How can you moan about a black cabbie for doing a rapid U-turn in front of you on a trunk road, if you've just bust a red light or 'hopped' the junction via the green man?
    'nuff said!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  23. Rabid Hamster
    Member

    ps as the income comes in from the fines, more cameras and better admin will come in, as the GLCS is supposed to be self-financing, but you've got to start somewhere!

    Sorry, going off topic!

    We do need better designed infrastructure to improve our behaviour, and we do need to earn respect from the public and drivers! I'm off to 'tailgate' a passing university student on the Pleasance now as they can get through any colour of light from what I've seen!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Only 2 per cent of cyclists regularly jump lights.
    31 per cent of drivers admit to stopping illegally over cycle-only advanced stop boxes at traffic lights. Drivers face a £60 fine and three points on their licence for doing so.
    Of pedestrians injured by red-light jumping, 4 per cent are hurt by cyclists, 71 per cent by cars. In 2009, no pedestrians were killed by cyclists, while 426 were killed by motor vehicles.
    55 per cent of drivers acknowledge that the biggest improvement to safety would come from an improvement in driving near cyclists, rather than a change in the behaviour of cyclists.

    "

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3414912.ece

    Posted 12 years ago #
  25. Min
    Member

    "How can you moan about a black cabbie for doing a rapid U-turn in front of you on a trunk road, if you've just bust a red light or 'hopped' the junction via the green man?
    'nuff said!"

    Yeah, but if you haven't then you can.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  26. gembo
    Member

    @rabid hamster RLJING risky and annoying. Hopping the green man naughty and annoying. What I do everyday on Gorgie road is dismount at a pedestrian crossing and push my bike over to avoid horrendous right turn up fords road. I understand from Cyclecraft that this is acceptable? If so why do so many drivers get annoyed about that?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  27. Dave
    Member

    "How can you moan about a black cabbie for doing a rapid U-turn in front of you on a trunk road, if you've just bust a red light or 'hopped' the junction via the green man?
    'nuff said!"

    I know that this is a stereotypical driver being "quoted" there and not necessarily anyone's actual point of view. So I have no compunction about saying:

    "How can you moan about being raped, if you've just illegally copied a CD to your MP3 player? It's almost like you think people don't have justification to commit any crime if you have ever committed one yourself!"

    If that seems like nonsense, that's because it is. All of it.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  28. Dave
    Member

    What's more, 93% of cyclists agree with me*.

    * sample size, systemic bias and many other caveats apply! :D

    Posted 12 years ago #
  29. wee folding bike
    Member

    Saw a driving instructor using his mobile phone to text or email this afternoon. I thought the qualified driver was in charge of the car so I wonder if he should have been doing that.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  30. gembo
    Member

    Broke my mudguard today as I was avoiding a woman on a horse using a mobile phone whilst the horse did what it liked - it was eating the grass by the path side but was not behaving itself. I went up the other path to avoid this scenario and at the top a stick wedged into the mudguard. I went to cheery bill the ironmonger in Balerno and bought the wrong sized cable ties to fix it

    Posted 12 years ago #

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