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'Cycling body withdraws support for events that encourage the use of helmets'

(219 posts)
  • Started 12 years ago by chdot
  • Latest reply from chdot
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  1. Dave
    Member

    Whaddya mean Dave? It's the thought that counts? :)

    I don't regard intentional close passes being any safer than accidental ones. Anger makes people make rash decisions & it still doesn't allow for misjudgement as the red mist descends.

    Yep, very much about the thoughts because unless you're dealing with a psychopath the problem isn't people deliberately running you down, but lack of anticipation (or simply failure to pay attention). If you read a roundup of local fatalities what proportion do you think were in cold blood? It's extremely rare as a subset of an event that is already enormously rare.

    The other obvious point is that when you ride wide in the road, at least in town, there are fewer overtakes in absolute terms. When I ride through a pinch point wide and it's physically impossible to pass me, no data would be recorded by the experimental rig.

    Before and after, the motorists waiting behind are able to get past and wherever they position themselves, I've reduced the passing distance by riding closer to them. So instead of X dodgy overtakes at a pinch point and generally being further from traffic the rest of the time, there are no dodgy overtakes at pinch points at all, but the actual passes are closer.

    That's why a metric of absolute distance isn't very interesting.

    Similarly, the average passing space when wearing a helmet might be only a couple of cm less, but IIRC the number of passes < 1m (which I think is the DfT's "close" definition?) increased by 23% when a helmet was worn.

    The observation only applies to however many thousand overtakes were measured on whichever road was used down south, obviously, but I guess the option is there for anybody to disprove it just by repeating the experiment elsewhere?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    "Very confusing to new/returning cyclists, thats for sure."

    I wonder how true that is.

    Most will be faced with a situation - as potential commuters or bike shop customers - where helmet purchase/use is normal.

    Few will think about questioning this.

    Some will be relieved that they don't have to admit their nervousness by wearing a helmet - because now 'everyone does'.

    Some will obviously not bother (for whatever reasons). It would be nice to think that their friends/colleagues/'society' wouldn't criticise them for this - but sadly this doesn't seem to be the case.

    Helmet use has increased over the past 30 years from almost zero to what it is today.

    Then in the UK it was fairly common for cyclists actually racing to wear the old style soft helmet. Continental pros didn't - even on 60mph Alpine descents.

    About the same time there was a leisure cycling boom in the US and a big rise in helmet use there. Possibly because US roads were viewed as even less cycle friendly than here.

    Helmet use in racing became compulsory (don't know when) and (as is common) habits/attitudes - and helmets - were imported from the States.

    On one hand Spokes is being foolishly nostalgic on the other it's saying 'wait a minute - we want to be like the countries where most people cycle without helmets'.

    Very difficult balancing act - but someone has to do it (with care).

    Posted 12 years ago #
  3. Instography
    Member

    Foolishly nostalgic?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  4. wee folding bike
    Member

    I was out for a ruby last month when this topic came up. One of our number wore one as a good example to his kids. One is a new cyclist and wears one because he thinks it's a useful item. The rest of us don't wear them.

    I was quite surprised at the level of scepticism among the old lags. It wasn't down to me, we hadn't really discussed this before and we haven't been out cycling together for years for the most part.

    There was one other commuter in the group the rest are recreational cyclists.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    "Foolishly nostalgic?"

    I'm sure you know what I mean.

    As in 'wishing things were like they used to be' when 'things have moved on'

    So Spokes could be seen as 'stuck in the past' or 'dangerous advocates of not wanting sensible safety precautions'.

    I assume there are no precedents for cities/societies going from lots of helmets to not many helmets.

    I'm sure that if motor vehicles were banned tomorrow, a lot of current helmet users would still wear them. A lot more people would probably start cycling - some with helmets, some without.

    Obviously no car/lorry bans - or perfect segregated infrastructure any time soon.

    Not publicising 'helmet compulsory' events is going to have little impact - but the surrounding publicity may - and probably not in a good way - as has been pointed out by various people above.

    IF anyone proposes helmet compulsion legislation Spokes - and many others - will campaign against.

    It's personal choice. It's best if that's based on more than 'well everyone else does/n't'.

    As we all know (not just on here) there are strong views on both sides.

    BUT there aren't really (just) two sides.

    There are also 'I'll stop wearing a helmet when the roads are safe'

    And 'I'll always wear a helmet to protect myself in the unlikely event that something happens'

    Plus 'I'll never wear a helmet 'cos I'm a good cyclist'.

    Also 'I'll never cycle - wouldn't feel safe without a helmet, would look stupid in one'.

    Rational? Are people rational?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    And previously -

    "Any UK law on cycle helmets should apply only to kids"

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=5613

    Posted 12 years ago #
  7. LivM
    Member

    What springs to mind here is the not-quite-Voltaire quote: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
    Spokes disapprove of events that mandate helmet use; they do not "defend to the death" their right to exist. I think that's what bothers me.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  8. Kirst
    Member

    They're not saying they shouldn't exist. They're just not publicising the fact they exist.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  9. Tom
    Member

    @wee folding bike: "...all the MAMILs who want to look like their heroes"

    You've totally nailed me. Maybe you can tell me which hero I resemble. With a nose that size I'm guessing Ferdy Kubler. Rasmussen?

    Selkirk Sportive 2011

    Posted 12 years ago #
  10. wee folding bike
    Member

    Sorry, I stopped watching racing when Channel 4 moved it off the 1800 hrs slot. Even then I wasn't very committed. If TdF clashed with Star Trek on a Wednesday I'd be off to BBC 2 instead.

    I do have replica shirts in a box somewhere but they are from the Z, KAZ, PDT era.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  11. Tom
    Member

    Ah, I came to cycling much later than you. I spent ten years playing golf. Which in hindsight was a big mistake. Still, I was a founding sponsor of iTeamnova which I think became the Flanders team much later.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  12. fatman69
    Member

    For what it's worth here's my opinion.

    I think Spokes have been absolutely correct in stopping promoting events which make compulsory helmet wearing for participants. It's something we as cyclist and responsible adults can make our own minds up about.

    I wear a helmet out on my bike, have done for over 25 years, it's my choice and I don't expect to be knocked by anyone for that choice. People who don't wear helmets are exercising their choice, and long may that continue.

    Spokes are saying that they won't support creeping compulsion by events insisting on helmet wearing, if we are all lead like sheep to accept the compulsory wearing of helmets what next?

    My sister in law thinks we should all be made to wear reflective clothing etc whilst out on the roads, I told her to paint her car fluorescent yellow and get reflective stripes fitted if that's how she felt about it. She then went into the whole road tax debate!!

    Point is imho compulsion will mean less cyclists on the road and less safe roads for us that do, anything that Spokes is doing to counter that has got my vote.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  13. gembo
    Member

    Tom I thought that was Lance Armstrong. I also note the creeping compulsion of white shoes. At least no white bar tape or saddle. I am being very cheeky here as one of the new bike to work bikes I am coveting is all white. I would ask for the bar tape to be changed. I understand a white saddle can be cleaned, doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Do we have a view on the creeping compulsion of the white colour in bikes?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  14. Instography
    Member

    Other colours are available.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  15. Tom
    Member

    @gembo, I looked here as usual and couldn't find anything about white on bikes so I'm at a complete loss until they update or fashion moves on. I'll wing it and say whatever clashes least with my pillar-box red knees.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  16. crowriver
    Member

    @Tom, note how neither Merckx nor de Vlaeminck are sporting lids. Just saying. Mind you, the rest of their outfits and equipment are a bit retro too: check out de Vlaeminck's elegant toe clips.

    So there are a range of heroes to emulate: not always involving lycra, polystyrene and wrap around shades.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

    Oooh look who has just started following CyclingEdin on Twitter! -

    "Scottish Collaboration for Public Health Research & Policy (SCPHRP). Researches health inequalities, early years, risk taking behaviour, obesity, later life"

    https://www.scphrp.ac.uk

    Posted 12 years ago #
  18. Tom
    Member

    @crowriver, also a good look...

    and here's handsome Ferdy:

    Posted 12 years ago #
  19. Dave
    Member

    Do we have a view on the creeping compulsion of the white colour in bikes?

    We would do if there were events where a white bike (or white skin?) was mandatory. One wonders mischievously if Spokes refused to promote "white people only" events, whether they'd receive equal opprobrium?

    (Careful, we're getting close to Godwin's law now?)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  20. crowriver
    Member

    Roger de Vlaeminck again, in what looks like a cyclocross event. Nice jersey!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  21. Min
    Member

    You could equally speculate that the advent of pro's wearing helmets made it okay for commoners to be seen wearing them too, whereas they may have wanted to wear one before but didn't want to be sneered at.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    "

    SCPHRP (@SCPHRP)
    11/06/2012 14:40
    @CyclingEdin I saw the original article on Spokes. As a health researcher & cyclist, I always wear one, and would hope that ohers would.

    "

    Posted 12 years ago #
  23. Tom
    Member

    @Dave I think we've jumped the shark there.

    @chdot Oh good grief please make it stop. Truly helmets are the Afghanistan of forum threads.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  24. wingpig
    Member

    Whilst I was still merely lurking here I found the various heated-argument threads very useful reading, though more in terms of the participants rather than the content.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  25. Instography
    Member

    If we're quoting public health people, how about this from the Greater Manchester Health and Transport Study Group.

    "Public health professionals must recognise the hazard of unintended consequences from well meaning helmet campaigners, and be prepared to speak out against exaggerations of risk and distortions of data."

    Posted 12 years ago #
  26. amir
    Member

    I used to cycle a lot when I was a teenager, including touring. In those days I wasn't aware of a helmet debate. But my parents did buy me a hairnet style helmet. I refused to wear it.

    When I returned to cycling a few years ago (8?), I bought a helmet without much thought and have worn one ever since without too much thought. I do feel strange now riding without one on (which I do sometimes on holiday). The place I am most likely to bang my head (by experience) is in the house (e.g. on the garage door). As I am often on my way to/from the bike, the helmet does definitely have a use.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  27. minus six
    Member

    Apologies for wantonly vandalising this thread last friday.

    Jaegermeister rules regrettably apply

    Posted 12 years ago #
  28. Dave
    Member

    It has a use if you fall off too, of course. The extreme oversimplification of this (by both sides) is why it's so depressingly hard to have a meaningful discussion that doesn't just drop into "common sense".

    Having said that, looking up-thread, if it's as simple as having the right occupation or qualification I wonder if it's worth taking ten months sabbatical to get a Masters in public health, just so that I can slam dunk conversations by saying "as a public health expert and cyclist, I think they're a laughable diversion. Get some exercise fat boy!"

    Posted 12 years ago #
  29. gembo
    Member

    I did the London Revolution this year, 1500 cyclists 180 + miles around said city. Very few people outwith the white middle class demographic

    @Tom rule no8 has a distinct tang of anti-white bikes

    @amir - often bang my head in the garage

    Posted 12 years ago #
  30. LivM
    Member

    I never wore a helmet in my youth. I started cycling again about 7 years ago (for the first time since I'd moved to Edinburgh) and was swiftly convinced to wear a helmet by cycling-doctor-boyfriend who advised that he has worn a helmet when cycling since his time working in A&E gave him first-hand experience of what unprotected heads are like after impacts. [Experience not backed up by years of research with RCTs].

    Now when I cycle without one it feels wrong and scary, just like it (would) feel driving without a seatbelt.

    Posted 12 years ago #

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