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North Berwick trains & disappearing cycle spaces

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  1. SRD
    Moderator

    Also from Spokes: BIKE SPACES ON NORTH BERWICK TRAINS

    "
    ScotRail is planning new rolling stock next year, which has very different bike-carriage capability to the existing excellent provision. Whilst the new trains will normally allow as many bikes, most of these will be in the vestibules rather than in a proper bike space, and obviously you won't be allowed on with a bike when the vestibules are full of standing people. We will be contacting East Lothian members about this later, but if any other members use this service and are concerned please let us know so that we can include you in any circulars about this.

    "

    Posted 14 years ago #

  2. Kim
    Member

    That is worrying, I used the train to come back from Longniddry the other weekend and there were 9 bikes on it. As there is insufficient capacity on the current rolling stock, what are things going to be like when they reduce it?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  3. SRD
    Moderator

    We tried to catch it back from Longniddry when the usual train wasn't running and the replacement only had two places which were 'full'. So we were left on platform with a small child for an hour late afternoon in November. Not fun. If the trains ran more frequently it wouldn't be an issue, but they are often collect at least 2 bikes from North Berwick, which means that people at the later stops are stuffed!

    Posted 14 years ago #

  4. spytfyre
    Member

    baffles me how they can reduce the space when they were fully used with 9 bikes, who filled in that survey and at what time of the day?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  5. Dave
    Member

    For me the mystery has always been, why wouldn't they make more money by adding extra bike space?

    Either the trains are empty in which case there's no loss of seating, or it's peak time when people who are already prepared to be standing for the journey are not going to be greatly inconvenienced by having to stand slightly more often.

    But, there would be a significant increase in revenue from cyclists, both at peak time and, significantly, off-peak when there is plenty of space anyway!

    Posted 14 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    Echoing the Spokes report above the official line is -

    "The Class 322s will be leaving ScotRail in March 2011 when our sublease ends, and will be replaced by new Class 380s with cycles placed in dedicated spaces and also vestibules.

    The four-car Class 380s will have two dedicated spaces plus opportunities to park bikes in vestibules. They will also work Ayrshire and Inverclyde, displacing Class 334s for Edinburgh-Helensburgh/Milngavie via Bathgate and Airdrie."

    Which doesn't deal with the point "obviously you won't be allowed on with a bike when the vestibules are full of standing people"

    In short you should still be able to get 8 or more bikes/people to/from North Berwick off-peak, but you might have to hold onto them...

    The ScotRail site says "A four-carriage train will have 282 (including 17 tip-up) seats + 2 wheelchair spaces + two cycle spaces)"

    Vestibules and tip-up seat spaces??

    Posted 14 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    Detailed briefing document from Spokes - inviting you to complain.

    "Spokes feels that this issue should be dealt with at a higher level than just ScotRail and that the most effective lobbying will be via your MSP to Stewart Stevenson, Minister for Transport, Infrastructure & Climate Change at the Scottish Government."

    "Please express your concerns in your own words and say how you or your family will be affected."

    Posted 14 years ago #

  8. smsm1
    Member

    I have generally put the amount of space that Scotrail have put for cyclists to high regard, as it's generally excellent compared to other train operators.

    You may find that you'll be able to get more than 2 bikes in the dedicated space as often happens on the newer train in the South East. On the London-Cambridge/Kings Lynn service, for example, there is no dedicated space for bike nor wheelchairs, as you are expected to put the bike in the doorway/vestibule. You then have the problem of the train having platforms on different sides of the train, at which point you have to be ready to get up and move the bike for other passengers.

    Personally I have another problem with placing my bike in the doorway, and that's because the doorway is usually too small, having a big dutch bike doesn't help. This is why I prefer a dedicated bike space. (Except on a southbound Virgin train, where you get into London and have to magicly manoeuvre the bike through carriage A to be able to get off. Northbound the driver will kindly let you off).

    Posted 14 years ago #

  9. SRD
    Moderator

    As usual, 'one bike per vestibule' (which you presumably have to stay with/hold) doesn't address people cycling with family/kids.

    This is slightly better than situation with replacement trains, which, as I narrated in a thread eons ago, refused to let 2 bikes and 3 people on at dusk on a cold Saturday, despite being EMPTY of foot passengers (there were 2 cycles in 'designated' spaces). But it is miles away from the fabulous - and used - spaces at the front of the usual trains.

    I feel so sorry for the commuters. First time we went out that way, we ended up talking to two different people in carriage who each told us (slightly different) stories of the lobbying involved to get the spaces in the first place.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  10. SRD
    Moderator

    And here's the -- quite unsatisfactory -- reply from Scotrail. Note the disjuncture with the Cycling Action Plan:

    "The existing trains go off-lease in March 2011, and as they are required down south we are replacing them with new four-car Class 380s which have two dedicated cycle-spaces.

    Cycles have been successfully carried for many years in the west of Scotland on trains that have no dedicated cycle-spaces, and with appropriate briefing to staff I am confident that between the dedicated spaces and the vestibules we shall be able to provide sufficient capacity to meet the demands of customers wanting to take cycles to and from East Lothian."

    This may suit commuters, but quite useless for family travel or group travel. Certainly does nothing to encourage the use of bikes, or non-car tourists venturing into East Lothian - which ought to be an obvious destination from Edinburgh.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  11. Smudge
    Member

    Barely adequate for commuters either I imagine, it is not uncommon to see three or even four bikes on a rack on the Glasgow Edinburgh service, and sometimes a pretty negative (there are two bikes on already you can't get on) attitude from the staff as well :-(

    Posted 14 years ago #

  12. SRD
    Moderator

    Emailed Mike Pringle (my MSP) and had quite a sensible reply. He's brought it to the attention of the Transport Minister. Will let you know if they have anything interesting to say in reply.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    Spokes writes to the Minister (again) -

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/1009-SPOKES-second-letter-to-Stewart-Stevenson-Re-Cl-380-trains-7-Sept-2010.pdf

    and asks anyone "concerned" to contact their MSPs.

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/downloads/public-transport/rail

    Posted 14 years ago #

  14. Morningsider
    Member

    A great effort from SPOKES as usual, but these trains are in the process of being built by Siemens and I imagine it is too late to change the design. The first train in the fleet was delieverd to ScotRail a few days ago. I doubt that any amount of complining is going to make any difference. All we can hope for is a flexible attitude from ScotRail staff to the carrying of bikes in vestibules.

    As I said in a previous thread, Transport Scotland were responsible for specifying these trains and I fear it reflects their general attitude to bikes and cyclists - i.e. handy for a bit of green publicity but generally a nuisance which get in the way of real transport. Just my personal opinion of course.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  15. kaputnik
    Moderator

    generally a nuisance which get in the way of real transport

    you don't mean... cars. Do you?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  16. Morningsider
    Member

    Not just cars - but trucks and vans too. Transport Scotland is spending £1.136bn on trunk roads this financial year, of which 0.176% is specifically for cycling projects - although cyclists will benefit from spending on winter maintenance and general maintenance of the network. I know the trunk road network is vital to Scotland's economy, but I think this demonstrates just how unimportant Transport Scotland considers cycling to be.

    Much of the trunk road network is open to cyclists (under 400 miles of an almost 3,500 mile network is motorway with a further 530 miles of dual carriageway)and these roads often provide the most direct routes to major destinations across Scotland - far more direct than the national cycle network. Proper provision for cyclists alongside trunk roads could lead to a major increase in longer distance cycle commuting, cycle tourism and utility cycling. It's not going to happen without a major change in attitude from Transport Scotland though.

    Posted 14 years ago #

  17. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Is its remit just to maintain the status quo, or is it also charged with shifting journeys off of cars to public transport / cycling or lorries / vans to rail?

    Posted 14 years ago #

  18. Morningsider
    Member

    The three key strategic outcomes of Scotland's National Transport Strategy, which guides the work of Transport Scotland, are:

    1. Improve journey times and connections between our cities and towns and our global markets to tackle congestion and provide access to key markets
    2. Reduce emissions to tackle climate change
    3. Improve quality, accessibility and affordability of transport, to give people the choice of public transport and real alternatives to the car.

    I would argue that one of the key ways to achieve all three would be to promote cycling (and walking).

    Posted 14 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    Just wondering what trains are on this line now - and how many bike spaces?

    Posted 6 years ago #

  20. Morningsider
    Member

    chdot - Siemens Class 380:

    https://www.eversholtrail.co.uk/upload/class-380.pdf

    Bikes are generally carried in the multi-purpose tip-up seat area. ScotRail staff also have discretion to allow bikes to be stored in the door vestibule areas - so in theory they can carry quite a few bikes (10-12?), dependent on staff grumpiness.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  21. Ed1
    Member

    I have seen over 10 bikes on the North Berwick 380, never not been able to get on. They also have 380s Glasgow to Ardrossan

    Posted 6 years ago #

  22. Frenchy
    Member

    I've not often tried, but never had a problem getting on at either North Berwick or Drem, even when the number of bikes exceeded allocated space.

    Took a tandem on once, and the staff made some "Hmm...er..." noises, but let us on.

    Posted 6 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    “Took a tandem on once, and the staff made some "Hmm...er..." noises, but let us on.“

    Ooh, that was going to be my next question...

    Posted 6 years ago #

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