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Heard this mentioned on R4: Traffic light crossings 'too quick for pensioners' Four in five pensioners cannot cross the road quickly enough to use a pedestrian crossing safely, researchers are warning. (link here to Telegraph, which is what google turned up).
In London earlier in the week, I was appalled at the number of cyclists going through Zebra crossings -- otherwise respectable looking people cycling along clearly thought they did not need to stop, even if peds waiting to cross.
I'm sure one or two of our regular posters will be along shortly to say that going through a zebra is fine if you don't hit anyone, just like a red light. And on that basis, it's fine to punish-pass as long as you don't touch.
Off to see the London cycling this morning. Snarky after a night on the 'sleeper' (ha)
As the Edinburgh Council chap replied to me when I complained about crossings on London Road being on for too short a time*, "they are all in accordance with the guidelines." Oh well that's alright then. Still go off too quickly, but as long as the GUIDELINES remain sacrosanct, no need to worry, eh?
* - 4 seconds was the shortest, I timed it. 4 seconds to cross 4 lanes of traffic.
To comply with the above:
I assume you probably mean they were going through even when people were on the crossing, however - legally, you must only stop if people are on the crossing, not if they're standing on the pavement - maybe they were all cycling lawyers? ;-)
"they are all in accordance with the guidelines."
Did they send you a copy?
Wonder if that's UK/Scotland/CEC?
"
Richard Mann (@ParadiseOxford)
14/06/2012 08:31
Pedestrian crossings (away from junctions) should go red for cars straightaway. Capacity is never a real issue, so it's just priority.
"
Aren't you supposed to stop at a zebra crossing if there are people waiting to cross? Isn't that the point of zebra crossings? (Mind you, I have absent-mindedly cycled over crossings with people waiting when off on planet fimm... I shouldn't be allowed on the roads, really)
crowriver : "4 seconds was the shortest, I timed it. 4 seconds to cross 4 lanes of traffic."
What kind of crossing?
Sounds like a Pelican crossing, in which case were you counting the flashing green man in that four seconds?
There has been a bit of a trend of removing Pelican crossings which have a very sensible approach to the time given to pedestrians to cross (and likewise to the amount of time that traffic (yes, that includes bikes) is held up) and replacing them with standard traffic light sequence crossings.
Rule 195
Zebra crossings. As you approach a zebra crossing
* look out for pedestrians waiting to cross and be ready to slow down or stop to let them cross
* you MUST give way when a pedestrian has moved onto a crossing
* etc etc
Which is why zebras are a bit like a game of chicken. Car only has to be ready to stop if they're waiting and must stop if they are on the crossing. Pedestrian might have to shut their eyes, step out and pray that the driver will stop.
The "guidelines" are likely to be the UK wide "The Design of Pedestrian Crossings":
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/local-transport-notes/ltn-2-95.pdf
This recommends pedestrian green man phases as follows:
a) 4 seconds for crossings up to 7.5 metres in length.
b) 5 seconds for crossings over 7.5 metres and up to 10.5 metres.
c) 6 seconds for crossings over 10.5 metres and up to 12.5 metres.
d) 7 seconds for crossings over 12.5 metres.
The timing for the flashing green man is normally set at 6 seconds plus 1 second for each 1.2 metres of crossing over 6 metres in length.
"
* - 4 seconds was the shortest, I timed it. 4 seconds to cross 4 lanes of traffic.
"
"
Richard Mann (@ParadiseOxford)
14/06/2012 09:08
The challenge is reducing the road network to the minimum you can get away with. Not 4 lane roundabouts like http://goo.gl/maps/UqFp
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The Highway Code (@HighwayCodeGB)
14/06/2012 10:47
Be patient and allow older pedestrians to cross in their own time. Don't hurry them by revving your engine or edging forward. Rule 207
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I am mainly shocked that this is only coming up as an issue now since it has been the way for many many years. Some crossing have such a short signal that not even I can get across in time and I am not elderly. The woman they had on the BBC this morning was in her 80s but was clipping along quite quickly and she couldn't manage it. How slower people manage is a mystery to me. It must be very stressful.
Which is why zebras are a bit like a game of chicken. Car only has to be ready to stop if they're waiting and must stop if they are on the crossing. Pedestrian might have to shut their eyes, step out and pray that the driver will stop.
My usual practice on a zebra crossing is to put one foot on the very edge of it and then stand giving approaching drivers a Hard Stare until one stops.
I didn't see the BBC article - isn't the point of the flashing orange light to make you wait for slower moving pedestrians but allow you to move if if the person crossing was out for a run and has long ago vanished into the distance...? Are they saying that even with the flashing phase there sin't enough time?
Sounds like a Pelican crossing, in which case were you counting the flashing green man in that four seconds?
No flashing green man. Just goes red. It's at a junction with traffic lights.
This is the crossing: http://goo.gl/maps/stEi
Try getting across that with young children or an older relative. Even I can't cross at a brisk pace before the red man comes on and the cars start revving their engines.
Further along, there's this crossing which is also unsatisfactory as it's nigh on impossible to get across when heading south. Five lanes of traffic.
http://goo.gl/maps/tGJ3
The green man on Montrose Terrace goes off very quickly, leaving you stranded on the traffic island until the whole sequence shifts again, with busy traffic thundering past on both sides.
When I complained about this and the fact it was opposite a primary school, I was briskly told that this crossing REQUIRES you to cross in two movements. If I wish to cross in one movement, I have to use the crossing further east.
http://goo.gl/maps/AknG
Sounds okay, but then if you want to go to Montrose Terrace or the primary school you have to either cross a Abbey Street with no signals where vehicles may be turning into the street from a junction, or use a narrow 'pavement' of inadequate width. Not great with kids in tow! Of course there are lollipop ladies there at the start and end of the school day, but for anything extra-curricular, like sports or scouts, you have to take your chances with rush hour traffic. Great!
Here is the BBC story, with the clip showing the 80 year old crossing the road.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-18428042
She makes it across while the green man is still flashing.
So there is nothing wrong with the timing of the lights and everything wrong with the attitude of the driver.
When the green man is on you can start to cross the road. Once you have started you should be safe to finish crossing, no matter how slow you are.
You shouldn't start to cross when the green man is flashing (lots of people do of course).
"When I complained about this and the fact it was opposite a primary school, I was briskly told that this crossing REQUIRES you to cross in two movements. If I wish to cross in one movement, I have to use the crossing further east."
Unless there is a button in the middle of the road then that sounds like rubbish.
I thought that crossings that required two movements were always staggered in the middle, or at least had a decent sized, fenced island.
Did they send you a copy?
No, that's the next step, requesting a copy. Just haven't got round to it.
I first complained about this in May 2011, no reply. I sent the same e-mail exactly a year later, and got a longish letter from the head of roads maintenance at CEC which essentially gives be the brush off by hiding behind the mysterious guidelines. No attempt to address my concerns about children, elderly or disabled folk trying to get across in time, never mind me as an able bodied man.
Maybe the media attention will add pressure to the council. They could certainly be a little less complacent and a little less craven to the great God of Traffic Flow. They are supposed to be pedestrian crossings, not traffic flow regulator valves.
There. Rant over. Must get around to replying to the man in the council.
Further along, there's this crossing which is also unsatisfactory as it's nigh on impossible to get across when heading south. Five lanes of traffic.
http://goo.gl/maps/tGJ3
But you are effectively trying ti cross two roads, London Road & Montrose Terrace. There is an island for you to go onto with a push button box, so I don't think it is unreasonable.. They could have just as easliy positioned the crossing 10 yards further West & you would end up on the Southern pavement of London Road which would have made you have to walk round the corner to cross Montrose Terrace.
True, but somehow at other junctions they manage to keep all the green men on for the same length of time, so pedestrians can get across any which way (eg. crossroads a bit further up Montrose Terrace, or the one further west on London Road where it meets Easter Road).
In this instance, the Montrose Terrace green man goes off but the one at London Road is still on, for quite a bit longer in fact. As far as I can see thatr is purely to aid traffic flowing into and out of Montrose Terrace. Pedestrians can of course take a gamble and cross against the red man if they spot an interval once the buildup of traffic has raced across. That however is not for the faint hearted as vehicles come along that stretch of road at a fair old lick.
The crossing is directly opposite not just a primary school but also sheltered housing for the elderly. Is Traffic Flow really so much of a priority that vulnerable folk need to be intimidated while trying to cross the road? It seems so...
198
Give way to anyone still crossing after the signal for vehicles has changed to green. This advice applies to all crossings.
Only problem I can see is that drivers aren't aware that the pedestrian is there as of right, whereas motorised traffic is only there under the terms of a license.
The vehicle must give way, even if the lights are green, so it shouldn't matter how long it takes to cross.
The pedestrian doesn't even need to have a formal crossing:
170
Take extra care at junctions. You should...
watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way
Not that drivers are at all aware of this!
Usual caveats apply - physics trumps the highway code in terms of safety...
Robert
@cb, this is the island. Yes it has buttons but it is quite wee and intimidating to be stranded there for any length of time. Most adults take their chances and skip across the red man on Montrose Terrace. Not advisable with kids or you are a bit slow...
"The vehicle must give way, even if the lights are green, so it shouldn't matter how long it takes to cross."
I'm quite sure if an old lady actually just shuffled across the road regardless of the green man length, people wouldn't run her down. The problem is people are being deterred from crossing roads, not that they are trying and getting run down I suppose.
"She makes it across while the green man is still flashing.
So there is nothing wrong with the timing of the lights and everything wrong with the attitude of the driver."
Technically yes but the lights begin to flash before she is even halfway across. Even the man who starts to walk before the man turns green does not get across. I think this is stupid. Who is going to be able to cross in that time? How many people are out for a run as opposed to just walking somewhere? The fact is that as soon as the lights start to flash, some idiots will move forward (on bikes and in cars) and this needs to be acknowledged and catered for with longer sequences.
Sorry for the rant but I really hate this system.
We need a national patience day or better still month.
Min:
...I really hate this system
Puffin-type detection technology could also be used at pedestrian facilities at signalled junctions to extend the pedestrian clearance time. Pelicans don't have to be replaced with Puffins, but it was expected that they would as the equipment became too old. Some people/Councils don't like the absence of far-side pedestrian lights in Puffins - they say some pedestrians don't like being expected to continue crossing without being able to see a green pedestrian light in front of them. If Puffins are not working properly sometimes drivers/riders get a green light before a pedestrian has finished crossing.
The confusion about the different types of facilities, not helped by the BBC report getting the type wrong in the report linked above.
"Some people/Councils don't like the absence of far-side pedestrian lights in Puffins "
Yes I don't like that either. I don't see why they can't be the right way round.
I have thought this for years, that the crossings do not allow enough time for pedestrians to cross the road. This is now a far worse situation than it used to be with the removal of traffic islands at so many sets of lights, making it necessary to cross a two-lane, each way road in a oner, that is four lanes. At least when there was an island for those whose mobility was impaired there was a safe haven for them to stop. Another reason I absolutely hate being a pedestrian in Edinburgh, and I am in no way physically impaired. It is not only at controlled crossings or lights that they have removed islands, but also where there were long stretches of road between junctions, which acted as traffic calming, speed reducing measures on such roads, no longer...making them more dangerous for pedestrian and gives car drivers the opportunity to put the foot down.
E-mail sent today:
Dear Mr x,
Thank you for your letter of 3 May 2012.
I have noted your explanation of the purpose of pedestrian crossings, crossing times, and your points regarding alternative crossings, the use of guidelines and the introduction of bus priority improvements. I also note that you made no mention of any consideration given to young children crossing to and from the nearby primary school, nor elderly people crossing to and from the adjacent sheltered housing on Abbey Street, notwithstanding the guidelines have apparently been followed.
I have some further queries which I hope you may be able to help with.
1. The guidelines you refer to, would they be "Local Transport Note 2/95 The Design of Pedestrian Crossings", published for the Department for Transport in 1995?
Can you confirm this is the guidance used for the crossings at junction of London Road at Montrose Terrace/Abbey Lane? Or is there different guidance for traffic light controlled pedestrian crossings? If the latter, I would be grateful if you could send me a copy of the exact guidance that you have used, either in the post, or you can send me a web link to the relevant document if convenient.
2. You mentioned that both the crossings (at Montrose Terrace and Abbey Lane) had recently been modified to provide bus priority improvements. Can you please explain exactly how the crossings have been modified, the timing changes, etc.?
3. Further on the bus priority issue, I am not aware of any scheduled bus services using Montrose Terrace, other than a couple of peak time express services. However the pedestrian crossing phase at Montrose Terrace is considerably shorter than the pedestrian crossing phase at London Road which forms part of the same route to Abbeyhill primary school. Yet London Road is a main bus route for many key bus services. Can you explain this apparent discrepancy in timings? It seems an unusual situation if bus priority is indeed the reason for changing the signal timings.
4. Could you further confirm that the needs of local residents, including pedestrians, were taken into account when modifying these crossings recently? Have the needs of elderly people at the sheltered housing in Abbey Street been considered? Have the Council's policies on providing safer routes to school been factored into any decisions regarding these modifications to the crossings?
I hope you can help.
Yours sincerely
etc. etc.
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